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#41
Dragon32

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Hello, good work on this. I can see some stainless steel coding's gone into it ;)

Here's my feedback on 0.0.1
  • Installer - ability to define where and whether Start Menu shortcut is created (e.g. I'd want mine in Game Progs\Morrowind\TES3Gecko)
  • Attempted to open a save game file (.ESS) --> "TES3gecko has stopped working"
    Not sure if planned to include opening savegame files at some point; record structure is simlar to ESPs and ESMs. Some extra records IIRC.
    There's an updated ESTemplate.ini (record definitions used by the Enchanted Editor) in the Wrye Mash install which Wrye added a lot of ESS record info into.
  • Header - HEDR - change "company name" to "author" :)
  • Header - Description - Parsing seems a bit off.
    TES3Gecko:
    "Fixes many aspects of the game.

    (requires Morrowind.esm, Tribunal.esm & Bloodmoon.esm to run)*s quest & bug fixes.

    (requires Morrowind.esm, Tribunal.esm & Bloodmoon.esm to run)"
    * is unprintable character symbol (that rectangular one)

    Enchanted Editor:
    "Fixes many aspects of the game.

    (requires Morrowind.esm, Tribunal.esm & Bloodmoon.esm to run)"

    TES:CS:
    "Fixes many aspects of the game.

    (requires Morrowind.esm, Tribunal.esm & Bloodmoon.esm to run)"
  • Summarised view.
    If I select in left hand pane
    Activator > furn_bannerd_alchemy_suran
    Right hand pane should display all subrecords. Should be similar to how TES*Edit displays information.
  • Have you checked out the Enchanted Editor GUI?
    http://mw.modhistory...a01f2d73168.jpg
    Not the best screenshot as it doesn't show subrecords.
    I seem to remember some people having trouble running it on Win8 though
  • Summarised view.
    Records are not sorted alphabetically within their group
    e.g. "furn_bannerd_alchemy_suran" comes before "active_sign_ald-ruhn_01"
    Not sure if related to "in Summarized view for large plugins such as Morrowind.esm the record summary areas are not sorted correctly."
  • Subrecords.
    Select a subrecord. Right-hand pane shows subrecord value, subrecord type (NAME, MODL, FNAM etc.) and subrecord size
    I can't think of a time when someone would need to know the subrecord size.
    When using TESPCD the size of a subrecord being different between two otherwise identical subrecords can lead to it being flagged as different.
  • Rename "simple" to "list"?
  • "Friendly" names for subrecord types?
    E.g. The value of the ITEX ID is the texture path to the icon. Enhanted Editor has this as "IconPath"
  • Closing an open plugin via little X on its tab doesn't seem to work.
    No other obvious way of closing open plugins in GUI, add "Close active plugin" to main dropdown menu?
  • With two versions of the Morrowind Patch Project open (multi-megabyte ESMs) Exit took a long time, well it didn't seem to work (killed via taskbar).
    A smaller plugin exited fine.
    If data is being unloaded before exit then some kind of progress indicator?
  • When plugin is already loaded into TES3Gecko checking the "Load Masters" checkbox does nothing. Disable it or allow retrospective loading of a plugin's masters
  • When loaded the tab title for Morrowind.esm is in grey text; presumably because it's a Bethesda ESM. Tribunal.esm and Bloodmoon.esm aren't similarly displayed.
  • Enabling "Load Masters" then opening a plugin where the required masters aren't in Data Files leads to a crash. "TES3gecko has stopped working"
Liking how this is looking :thumbsup: Whilst I've posted a lot of things I hope you'd rather get feedback now rather than later...
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#42
AndalayBay

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Excellent feedback Dragon - thank you! :beerchug:


Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of giving pleasure to thousands, and all you can do is scratch it!
-- Attributed to Thomas Beecham in reference to the performance of a female cello soloist

#43
Leonardo

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Second that! :D



#44
AndalayBay

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My favourite had to be:

 

  • Header - HEDR - change "company name" to "author" :)

 

What? You don't have your own modding company? :rofl:


Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of giving pleasure to thousands, and all you can do is scratch it!
-- Attributed to Thomas Beecham in reference to the performance of a female cello soloist

#45
brucoms

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My favourite had to be:

 

  • Header - HEDR - change "company name" to "author" :)

 

What? You don't have your own modding company? :rofl:

Dragon Enterprises perhaps?


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#46
Jimi diGriz

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Hello, good work on this. I can see some stainless steel coding's gone into it ;)

Here's my feedback on 0.0.1

 
Great feedback. Thanks very much.
 

  • Installer - ability to define where and whether Start Menu shortcut is created (e.g. I'd want mine in Game Progs\Morrowind\TES3Gecko)
  • Attempted to open a save game file (.ESS) --> "TES3gecko has stopped working"
    Not sure if planned to include opening savegame files at some point; record structure is simlar to ESPs and ESMs. Some extra records IIRC.
    There's an updated ESTemplate.ini (record definitions used by the Enchanted Editor) in the Wrye Mash install which Wrye added a lot of ESS record info into.
  • Header - HEDR - change "company name" to "author" :)
  • Header - Description - Parsing seems a bit off.
    TES3Gecko:
    "Fixes many aspects of the game.

    (requires Morrowind.esm, Tribunal.esm & Bloodmoon.esm to run)*s quest & bug fixes.

    (requires Morrowind.esm, Tribunal.esm & Bloodmoon.esm to run)"
    * is unprintable character symbol (that rectangular one)

    Enchanted Editor:
    "Fixes many aspects of the game.

    (requires Morrowind.esm, Tribunal.esm & Bloodmoon.esm to run)"

    TES:CS:
    "Fixes many aspects of the game.

    (requires Morrowind.esm, Tribunal.esm & Bloodmoon.esm to run)"
  • Summarised view.
    If I select in left hand pane
    Activator > furn_bannerd_alchemy_suran
    Right hand pane should display all subrecords. Should be similar to how TES*Edit displays information.
  • Have you checked out the Enchanted Editor GUI?
    http://mw.modhistory...a01f2d73168.jpg
    Not the best screenshot as it doesn't show subrecords.
    I seem to remember some people having trouble running it on Win8 though
  • Summarised view.
    Records are not sorted alphabetically within their group
    e.g. "furn_bannerd_alchemy_suran" comes before "active_sign_ald-ruhn_01"
    Not sure if related to "in Summarized view for large plugins such as Morrowind.esm the record summary areas are not sorted correctly."
  • Subrecords.
    Select a subrecord. Right-hand pane shows subrecord value, subrecord type (NAME, MODL, FNAM etc.) and subrecord size
    I can't think of a time when someone would need to know the subrecord size.
    When using TESPCD the size of a subrecord being different between two otherwise identical subrecords can lead to it being flagged as different.
  • Rename "simple" to "list"?
  • "Friendly" names for subrecord types?
    E.g. The value of the ITEX ID is the texture path to the icon. Enhanted Editor has this as "IconPath"
  • Closing an open plugin via little X on its tab doesn't seem to work.
    No other obvious way of closing open plugins in GUI, add "Close active plugin" to main dropdown menu?
  • With two versions of the Morrowind Patch Project open (multi-megabyte ESMs) Exit took a long time, well it didn't seem to work (killed via taskbar).
    A smaller plugin exited fine.
    If data is being unloaded before exit then some kind of progress indicator?
  • When plugin is already loaded into TES3Gecko checking the "Load Masters" checkbox does nothing. Disable it or allow retrospective loading of a plugin's masters
  • When loaded the tab title for Morrowind.esm is in grey text; presumably because it's a Bethesda ESM. Tribunal.esm and Bloodmoon.esm aren't similarly displayed.
  • Enabling "Load Masters" then opening a plugin where the required masters aren't in Data Files leads to a crash. "TES3gecko has stopped working"
  • I'll see what the installer lets me do for placing the shortcut. I understand the requirement.
  • I'll add it to the list.
  • 'nuf said :)
  • Understood.
  • I'll have to look at how this is displayed in 'Edit.  I don't know what you mean at the moment.
  • I did have a look at a number of tools, including the Enchanted Editor.  I personally found many of the existing tools pretty confusing, so I will need to get some feedback on how folks are actually using the tools so that I understand the workflow.
  • We do have some problems with the sorting of the summary level labels, but I didn't consider sorting the lower level Ids - I will look into that.  Thanks for reading the readme, by the way :)
  • The view is pretty raw right now; we can easily remove the size.  This would have no bearing on the matching as the size is part of the data whether we display it or not - the matching rules would need to be reviewed at the data level.
  • A better name than mine.
  • This is doable.
  • That part hasn't been implemented yet.  It is on the list.  I will add a close option on the ribbon and the file menu as well.
  • I am guessing that this is related to item 14.  There should be no delay on closing, and the application should not crash.  I suspect that there are some state management problems to debug.
  • This annoys me too when testing.  When you do click on Load Masters checkbox, would you like a popup warning you of the time it will take to load the masters (and allow you to change your mind), or just go ahead?
  • The grey tabs are indications that the plugins in question are still being loaded.  You should see the progress bar continue at the bottom of the window while this is happening.  The Morrowind.esm tab should eventually blink in like the others when it is done.  I suspect that you tried to shut the application down while this was happening, resulting in the problem reported in item 12.  I will work on the crash, although I would be interested in how to better indicate what is going on.
  • I was aware of this but didn't get the fix into this build.  Sorry about that.

Liking how this is looking  :thumbsup: Whilst I've posted a lot of things I hope you'd rather get feedback now rather than later...

Once again, thanks for the time and effort to test and write this report. One of the good things about "stainless steel coding" is that it can put up with a certain amount of corrosion without losing its finish :)



#47
Jimi diGriz

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Ah, cool, it's out!

 

Any possibility of making a tree structure in the UI? Loading Morrowind.esm is kinda painful with all the records being listed in the first level :P

 

Did you check out the Summarized option in the View section of the ribbon?  I'll admit that the ribbon presentation needs work, but does the resulting tree do what you want?



#48
Leonardo

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I tried to launch TES3Gecko in the Utilities tab in WMSA and it worked as intended.  The only thing I notice when I launched TES3Gecko from WMSA is that WMSA will stop responding for a couple of seconds, but that seems to be normal.



#49
Dragon32

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#5

Summarised view.
If I select in left hand pane
Activator > furn_bannerd_alchemy_suran
Right hand pane should display all subrecords. Should be similar to how TES*Edit displays information.
##################
I'll have to look at how this is displayed in 'Edit. I don't know what you mean at the moment.

Select in left hand pane:
Activator > furn_bannerd_alchemy_suran

Right hand pane displays all subrecords without further user interaction:
NAME = furn_bannerd_alchemy_suran
MODL = f\Furn_bannerD_alchemy_01.NIF
FNAM = Ibarnadad: Apothecary
SCRI = OutsideBanner

#6

Have you checked out the Enchanted Editor GUI?
http://mw.modhistory...a01f2d73168.jpg
Not the best screenshot as it doesn't show subrecords.
I seem to remember some people having trouble running it on Win8 though
##################
I did have a look at a number of tools, including the Enchanted Editor. I personally found many of the existing tools pretty confusing, so I will need to get some feedback on how folks are actually using the tools so that I understand the workflow.

Not sure if you saw the manual, CHM format, or not. May help understand it better than just being confronted with the program alone.

#12

With two versions of the Morrowind Patch Project open (multi-megabyte ESMs) Exit took a long time, well it didn't seem to work (killed via taskbar).
A smaller plugin exited fine.
If data is being unloaded before exit then some kind of progress indicator?
##################
I am guessing that this is related to item 14. There should be no delay on closing, and the application should not crash. I suspect that there are some state management problems to debug.


#14

When loaded the tab title for Morrowind.esm is in grey text; presumably because it's a Bethesda ESM. Tribunal.esm and Bloodmoon.esm aren't similarly displayed.
##################
The grey tabs are indications that the plugins in question are still being loaded. You should see the progress bar continue at the bottom of the window while this is happening. The Morrowind.esm tab should eventually blink in like the others when it is done. I suspect that you tried to shut the application down while this was happening, resulting in the problem reported in item 12. I will work on the crash, although I would be interested in how to better indicate what is going on.

Curbed my impatience this time and things worked as you described, no pause on exiting even with the three Bethesda ESMs and the MPP ESM loaded.

When loading masters would a progress bar in the middle of the program rather than in the status bar indicate better to unobservant types like me that things are happening? When masters are being loaded can the user actually do anything? If they can't then a modal progress bar (is that the right word? basically user can't do anything until progress bar disappears).


Some more thoughts:

Is it possible to alter the File Open dialog and add the "Load Masters" checkbox there? I'm not sure if that should be as well as where it is now or instead of. It's just my forgetful brain has clicked the Open button, browsed to and selected a plugin to load and then remembered that I'd like to load the plugin's masters too.

If #13 can be implemented then this would not be necessary

#13

When plugin is already loaded into TES3Gecko checking the "Load Masters" checkbox does nothing. Disable it or allow retrospective loading of a plugin's masters
##################
This annoys me too when testing. When you do click on Load Masters checkbox, would you like a popup warning you of the time it will take to load the masters (and allow you to change your mind), or just go ahead?

In two minds about a popup warning. If the popup could have one of those "Check this checkbox if you don't want to see this message again" options then fine, if the popup would appear every time then it would get annoying.

If a checkbox in the popup like I described can't be implemented then I'd say to not have a pop-up at all, experience in using the program (and the readme, which everyone reads) would mean people would soon realise the implications of loading plugin masters.


Script records in Summarized view. Expanding the Script group is not a good thing to do. Rather than using Script Name from Script Header (SCHD) it's displaying the whole Script Text (SCTX) in the left hand pane.


I've (once) opened a plugin and some of the record type groupings (Header, Book, Light etc.) were replaced with "?"; not sure what you can do with something like this where there're no clear steps to reproduce. I'm not aware what I did differently to cause this behaviour.

Over on Bethsoft abot posted this:

[EDIT]The more tools the better, but as there are other tools doing what listed already, I suggest a single feature not properly 100% covered by other existing tools: a TEStool-like merge objects working with long mod lists

Not sure how it fits with your planned feature set but it'd be a sure fire to make this one of the most popular third party tools out there.

If you've no idea what a Merged Objects plugin is I assembled an explanation on the Morrowind Modding Wiki.

#50
Leonardo

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Script records in Summarized view. Expanding the Script group is not a good thing to do. Rather than using Script Name from Script Header (SCHD) it's displaying the whole Script Text (SCTX) in the left hand pane.

I think expanding the Script group is a good idea, but it would be annoying in the long run if the whole script is in the left pane, instead view the entire script in the bottom right pane while the top right pane is for displaying records plus subrecords if necessary.



#51
Arthmoor

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Ah, cool, it's out!

 

Any possibility of making a tree structure in the UI? Loading Morrowind.esm is kinda painful with all the records being listed in the first level :P

 

Did you check out the Summarized option in the View section of the ribbon?  I'll admit that the ribbon presentation needs work, but does the resulting tree do what you want?

 

Yes, that worked. Not a huge fan of ribbon menus but that's displaying what I want :)


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#52
Jimi diGriz

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#5
<..>
Select in left hand pane:
Activator > furn_bannerd_alchemy_suran

Right hand pane displays all subrecords without further user interaction:
NAME = furn_bannerd_alchemy_suran
MODL = f\Furn_bannerD_alchemy_01.NIF
FNAM = Ibarnadad: Apothecary
SCRI = OutsideBanner

#6

Have you checked out the Enchanted Editor GUI?
http://mw.modhistory...a01f2d73168.jpg
Not the best screenshot as it doesn't show subrecords.
I seem to remember some people having trouble running it on Win8 though
##################
I did have a look at a number of tools, including the Enchanted Editor. I personally found many of the existing tools pretty confusing, so I will need to get some feedback on how folks are actually using the tools so that I understand the workflow.

Not sure if you saw the manual, CHM format, or not. May help understand it better than just being confronted with the program alone.

 


I will look into both of these.
 

Curbed my impatience this time and things worked as you described, no pause on exiting even with the three Bethesda ESMs and the MPP ESM loaded.

When loading masters would a progress bar in the middle of the program rather than in the status bar indicate better to unobservant types like me that things are happening? When masters are being loaded can the user actually do anything? If they can't then a modal progress bar (is that the right word? basically user can't do anything until progress bar disappears).


Some more thoughts:

Is it possible to alter the File Open dialog and add the "Load Masters" checkbox there? I'm not sure if that should be as well as where it is now or instead of. It's just my forgetful brain has clicked the Open button, browsed to and selected a plugin to load and then remembered that I'd like to load the plugin's masters too.

If #13 can be implemented then this would not be necessary


I changed the original application experience so that you could interact with the loaded plugins while the masters (especially Morrowind.esm) are being loaded. The initial implementation had you watch an hourglass cursor until everything was done (which you can have back, if you prefer :)). You should be able to open the trees that have been created, and even click around in the still opening Morrowind.esm.  I will warn you, however, that the main master tree is still being built while its tab is grey so it will probably not perform very well.  The point was to allow some interactivity while things were being done.  Putting a progress bar in the middle of the screen would get in the way of this.  I am open, however, to whatever is suggested for making this less confusing and more useful.

I would prefer to implement the #13 answer rather than to create a custom File Open dialog to replace the system one.
 

#13
<...>
In two minds about a popup warning. If the popup could have one of those "Check this checkbox if you don't want to see this message again" options then fine, if the popup would appear every time then it would get annoying.

If a checkbox in the popup like I described can't be implemented then I'd say to not have a pop-up at all, experience in using the program (and the readme, which everyone reads) would mean people would soon realise the implications of loading plugin masters.


I have seen other applications act as you suggest. They usually also have a settings area that allows you to re-enable the dialogs that you have dismissed. It's all doable, just a matter of getting it done.
 

Script records in Summarized view. Expanding the Script group is not a good thing to do. Rather than using Script Name from Script Header (SCHD) it's displaying the whole Script Text (SCTX) in the left hand pane.


I will change this to use the Script Header text.
 

I've (once) opened a plugin and some of the record type groupings (Header, Book, Light etc.) were replaced with "?"; not sure what you can do with something like this where there're no clear steps to reproduce. I'm not aware what I did differently to cause this behaviour.


I will keep an eye out for this. Please let us know if you have a specific example.
 

Over on Bethsoft abot posted this:

[EDIT]The more tools the better, but as there are other tools doing what listed already, I suggest a single feature not properly 100% covered by other existing tools: a TEStool-like merge objects working with long mod lists

Not sure how it fits with your planned feature set but it'd be a sure fire to make this one of the most popular third party tools out there.

If you've no idea what a Merged Objects plugin is I assembled an explanation on the Morrowind Modding Wiki.

 


I am not opposed to improved popularity of the application ;)



#53
Dragon32

Dragon32

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Curbed my impatience this time and things worked as you described, no pause on exiting even with the three Bethesda ESMs and the MPP ESM loaded.

When loading masters would a progress bar in the middle of the program rather than in the status bar indicate better to unobservant types like me that things are happening? When masters are being loaded can the user actually do anything? If they can't then a modal progress bar (is that the right word? basically user can't do anything until progress bar disappears).

I changed the original application experience so that you could interact with the loaded plugins while the masters (especially Morrowind.esm) are being loaded. The initial implementation had you watch an hourglass cursor until everything was done (which you can have back, if you prefer :)). You should be able to open the trees that have been created, and even click around in the still opening Morrowind.esm. I will warn you, however, that the main master tree is still being built while its tab is grey so it will probably not perform very well. The point was to allow some interactivity while things were being done. Putting a progress bar in the middle of the screen would get in the way of this. I am open, however, to whatever is suggested for making this less confusing and more useful.

Yeah, thinking about it current behaviour (interactivity whilst loading) is better. When it comes to the part where editing is adding to TES3Gecko then I guess that plugins will be read-only until fully loaded, I'd've thought that allowing editing a thing whilst that thing is being loaded would be a bit of a nightmare.

 

Some more thoughts:

Is it possible to alter the File Open dialog and add the "Load Masters" checkbox there? I'm not sure if that should be as well as where it is now or instead of. It's just my forgetful brain has clicked the Open button, browsed to and selected a plugin to load and then remembered that I'd like to load the plugin's masters too.

If #13 can be implemented then this would not be necessary

I would prefer to implement the #13 answer rather than to create a custom File Open dialog to replace the system one.

Yeah, I'd prefer catering for retrospective master loading too :)
 

#13
<...>
In two minds about a popup warning. If the popup could have one of those "Check this checkbox if you don't want to see this message again" options then fine, if the popup would appear every time then it would get annoying.

If a checkbox in the popup like I described can't be implemented then I'd say to not have a pop-up at all, experience in using the program (and the readme, which everyone reads) would mean people would soon realise the implications of loading plugin masters.

I have seen other applications act as you suggest. They usually also have a settings area that allows you to re-enable the dialogs that you have dismissed. It's all doable, just a matter of getting it done.

I'd put this notification / popup in the "nice to have" group of features. As I said, some experience of using the application would rapidly acquaint people with the fact that loading a plugin's masters takes time.


[Edit: Something else I just thought of: storing the application's window size and the width of the panes, when running the application again those values are restored].

Edited by Dragon32, 19 November 2014 - 05:31 PM.


#54
Leonardo

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I think you should know that viewing a CHM file in Vista or newer WIndows is impossible, because it requires WinHlp32.exe to view it and WinHlp32.exe only exist in WindowsXP or older.

 

So install this patch  if you haven't already done that and now you can view the manual for the Enchanted Editor plus the CHM file in TES3 CS via the Help>>Contents menu.

 

 

 

After reading the technical details of doubling in Morrowind, I began to understand how to convert the structure of records for Morrowind to match the code in TES4Gecko/TES4Edit for the FormID record structure. But I guess that you guys already that kind of stuff. :P

 

Have you guys read the stuff that Wrye wrote over 10 years ago?  It's amazing that all stuff he wrote are still available.



#55
Leonardo

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When I read the readme for TESPCD it seems it's written in Microsoft Visual C++ 6.0 SP5 Project using MFC.
 

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