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Arthmoor

Request - Preserve Order of Dialog Topic Changes

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A plea/request/begging/whatever - Read this: http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1507220-irritating-issue-dialogue-ordering/

 

Please, please, please, do not let Gecko make the daft assumptions that Shroob has run into with his mod and the other cleaning tools just assuming out of hand that his changes should be reverted as bad edits. This sort of heavy handed BS is what breeds Giskard-like reactions and gives them justification.

 

Makes me wonder now if those tools might have broken the two mods I have which rely on editing dialogue.

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I don't understand a word of that. :P I'm still getting up to speed on Morrowind modding. Am I correct in concluding that Shroob was trying to rearrange dialogue topics and the other cleaning tools are removing his edits since they considered rearranging dialogue topics to be a dirty edit? But won't you break other mods by reordering the dialogue topics?

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Exactly. Shroob is/was trying to make a mod to rearrange some dialogue because it won't play in vanilla. Which strikes me as a totally legit thing to do, especially if some of it crosses over into bug territory.

 

The cleaning tools revert the edits for no apparently good reason other than "don't conflict with me bro" which strikes me as a not-legit thing to do.

 

I don't accept "it might conflict" as a valid excuse for tool authors doing something like this. Can you imagine the chaos if Elminster had been beset by an army of Giskard-like folks insisting it remove every edit they considered dodgy even if it wasn't an ITM or UDR?

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Ok, can we discuss this in the UMP forums? I am pretty sure that we were going to remove some bug fixes that changed the order of dialogue topics because it broke other mods and caused crashes.

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Ok, can we discuss this in the UMP forums? I am pretty sure that we were going to remove some bug fixes that changed the order of dialogue topics because it broke other mods and caused crashes.

Sure we can discuss the critical parts of this in the UMP forum.   However I do think that this kind of discussion needs to be a public thread, because it affects the whole community not only modders but also mod users.

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Not sure what aspect needs to be covered on the UMP side. I was mainly pleading not to let Gecko get caught up in the carelessness that led to what Shroob ran into with the cleaners he's used.

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I just wanted to use their expertise. :) I don't know enough about Morrowind to know whether this is an issue or not. If you can't change the order of the topics, then the existing cleaners are actually doing the right thing. If you can, then we'll have to figure out how to preserve the new order.

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Not sure what aspect needs to be covered on the UMP side. I was mainly pleading not to let Gecko get caught up in the carelessness that led to what Shroob ran into with the cleaners he's used.

This is why it's important to cover it in TES3Gecko for UMP.

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Not sure what aspect needs to be covered on the UMP side. I was mainly pleading not to let Gecko get caught up in the carelessness that led to what Shroob ran into with the cleaners he's used.

This is why it's important to cover it in TES3Gecko for UMP.

 

 

That's just a general cleaning issue and it turns out TES3Cmd was correct. The female cuirass was added in Tribunal, so when cleaning against that, the cuirass added by the patch would be a duplicate.

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No it isn't a general cleaning issue, because it's a serious issue with objects and objects must be handle in TESTool.

 

You see you cannot merge objects in the same way you do in TESxEdit for Oblivion and Skyrim, so that's why you must use TESTool to merge objects into a Merged Objects.esp IIRC.  Also backup your mods before using TESTool. because sometimes it creates more issues than solving one.

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Also backup your mods before using TESTool. because sometimes it creates more issues than solving one.

Honestly, this makes the program sound completely unreliable. If one needs to make backups first in case the thing completely ruins the end result, why bother? TESxEdit only issues that warning as a caution - it will never produce damaged results like we're finding here.As an aside, I've been helping Shroob diagnose this problem for a couple of hours now with a test plugin. I'm disturbed to find that two of the editing tools (TESAME and Enchanted Editor) DO NOT AGREE on what the actual INFO records we're messing with contain. This is a HUGE problem.TESAME reflects the order of the records I was messing with as the CS saved them once I was done shuffling the way Shroob asked for. Enchanted Editor has things that are very clearly wrong - INAM subrecords which don't match the contents TESAME says they have.Worse still, loading the test plugin I made back into the CS messes up the reordering that was done in such a way that it no longer matches what either of the two tools says it should be.

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Yes. The CS let me rearrange the order just fine. Saved it out and everything. TESAME confirms the order in the file is what I set it to.

 

The problem is, reloadng it into the CS botches the order, and Shroob says the botched order is how the game is reading it.

 

Enchanted Editor does not agree with either of the results, so as far as I can see, it's useless for this purpose and IMO makes it unreliable to use for any purpose.

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So it sounds like you can't reorder the topics then. If the order can't be changed, then the tools that are cleaning out the edits are doing the right thing.

 

We hope to have a preview version out soon. It will display the records as they are arranged in the plugin - we aren't doing any sorting yet.

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Also backup your mods before using TESTool. because sometimes it creates more issues than solving one.

Honestly, this makes the program sound completely unreliable. If one needs to make backups first in case the thing completely ruins the end result, why bother? TESxEdit only issues that warning as a caution - it will never produce damaged results like we're finding here.As an aside, I've been helping Shroob diagnose this problem for a couple of hours now with a test plugin. I'm disturbed to find that two of the editing tools (TESAME and Enchanted Editor) DO NOT AGREE on what the actual INFO records we're messing with contain. This is a HUGE problem.TESAME reflects the order of the records I was messing with as the CS saved them once I was done shuffling the way Shroob asked for. Enchanted Editor has things that are very clearly wrong - INAM subrecords which don't match the contents TESAME says they have.Worse still, loading the test plugin I made back into the CS messes up the reordering that was done in such a way that it no longer matches what either of the two tools says it should be.

Indeed.  So now you know why people in the Morrowind community almost jumped miles away of the floor when someone announce a modern proper cleaning tool e.g TES3Edit, TES3Gecko to replace the older modding tools.

 

Have you or Shroob tried TESPCD to detect duplicate records yet?

 

I really hope that shadeMe release a CSE for Morrowind in the future, because a CS Extender is dammed needed IMHO.

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So it sounds like you can't reorder the topics then. If the order can't be changed, then the tools that are cleaning out the edits are doing the right thing.

 

We hope to have a preview version out soon. It will display the records as they are arranged in the plugin - we aren't doing any sorting yet.

Well the thing is, you CAN change the order, it just won't come back the way you're expecting every time since the game isn't reverting it back to vanilla.

 

The issue of tools cleaning these edits out remains - because you cannot assume "oh, this is a CS bug" and just remove it.

Edited by Arthmoor

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So you can change the order with the CS, and then save this change. However, the order is messed up when the plugin is loaded back into the CS or into the game?

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Yes. The CS let me rearrange the order just fine. Saved it out and everything. TESAME confirms the order in the file is what I set it to.

 

The problem is, reloading it into the CS botches the order, and Shroob says the botched order is how the game is reading it.

Suppose there is a way to rearrange the order backwards when reloading the mod into CS and hope that CS botches it into a correct order as it were when you rearrange it in CS then saving it and exit CS.

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So you can change the order with the CS, and then save this change. However, the order is messed up when the plugin is loaded back into the CS or into the game?

Exactly. That's what's happening.

 

May be relevant to point out this was tested using only Morrowind.esm as a master.

Edited by Arthmoor

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So you can change the order with the CS, and then save this change. However, the order is messed up when the plugin is loaded back into the CS or into the game?

Exactly. That's what's happening.

 

May be relevant to point out this was tested using only Morrowind.esm as a master.

 

 

Yes. The CS let me rearrange the order just fine. Saved it out and everything. TESAME confirms the order in the file is what I set it to.

 

The problem is, reloadng it into the CS botches the order, and Shroob says the botched order is how the game is reading it.

 

Enchanted Editor does not agree with either of the results, so as far as I can see, it's useless for this purpose and IMO makes it unreliable to use for any purpose.

 

I'm trying this with Morrowind, Tribunal and Bloodmoon loaded. The CS scrambles the reorder as it pleases, while MWEdit, TESAME and Enchanted Editor open it (the version only saved once, not saved after the scrambling) as intended (INAM, PNAM, NNAM and contents all match there).

 

After saving the scrambled mod, MWEdit, TESAME and Enchanted Editor open it in the scrambled state, but their INAM, PNAM, NNAM and contents match... which is different from what Arthmoor achieved. Result of install setup differences?

 

BTW, I did some reading through old forum/archives and it seems that there was a person who was reordering voice responses... coincidentally he was called Thepal and created a mod known as Unofficial Morrowind Patch. I've checked the reorder changes and they persist in CS, without random scrambling.

Since the UMP is an ESM, maybe saving the changes as an ESM does the trick (in the same session as the esp creation)?

 

Or maybe Shroob's voice changes of everything are too big at once for the CS to accept? After all, there are reasons why there are established hints as to how change the dialogues in Morrowind, one of them being ~"instead of changing the existing en masse, create new, identical and place it above the old" or something.

Thepal's changes in dialogues are many, but spread over.

Edited by Skrawafunda

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Ok, I moved this discussion to a new thread.

 

So you guys are saying that you should be able to rearrange dialog topics? Is it just renaming dialog topics that will cause problems then?

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I don't know if his changes were too large a chunk for it to handle or what, I only did one subset of the things he was doing, maybe 10 records at most, and it choked on that. Or, well, it choked while LOADING that since the file saved properly as far as TESAME is concerned.

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Ok, I moved this discussion to a new thread.

 

So you guys are saying that you should be able to rearrange dialog topics? Is it just renaming dialog topics that will cause problems then?

It will break any AddTopic lines.

 

The easiest way to re-order dialog is to add/change the filters for the line(s). In Morrowind, dialog is "read" from the very top most line down a line to the very last one until the engine finds one that can be displayed based on its filtering. If none of the filters apply, nothing will be displayed for that topic, which is why every NPC doesn't have something to say about every topic. I think in this case, duplicating the entries and adding/changing filters would be better than trying to rearrange the lines themselves. It could very well be that the order is hardcoded and if it's changed, the CS and/or MW itself will just scramble them. Anyway, it's not a good practice to follow given the issues.

 

I think as far as cleaning goes, the INAM, PNAM, NNAM records should match the originals, and if they don't, clean them. But have an option to where the user can disable that if the mod author recommends it. Messing with the default dialog in Morrowind is very tricky and not something I recommend.

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Quick note. Apparently EE needs an ini file for template data to be updated, which Wrye Mash conveniently has a copy of. I put that in the folder with EE's executable and now when I examine the INFO records the INAM, PNAM, and NNAM subrecords agree with what TESAME says they should be.

 

So it looks like the CS saves the data ok, but then scrambles it on reload, and the game scrambles it in the same way.

 

All in all rather frustrating.

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