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      Wikis Moving   10/08/2020

      Enodoc from the UESP has stepped up and will host our wikis in their wiki farm. I just finished uploading the backups to the UESP server. The wikis that are moving are: Better Cities Morrowind Modding Wiki TESCOSI OOO Oblivion Quest Mods Ordendesdrachen The last three are wikis that WalkerInShadows created. I never finished getting them set up on TAL, so they'll finally be available again once the UESP guys finish getting things set up.

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and related - is there a way to do save game management? I see Nexus has a "is this a save game" selection, so maybe FOMOD/Vortex does something? I have a lot of test saves lying around for different overhauls, would like to include them in the repo

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43 minutes ago, haama said:

And really the goal is to hide the advanced features better. If Tweaks, II, TNR require a Bash Patch then give them a BAIN installer only to ensure the player has Bash and has some idea of what it's about, why they need it.

 

I wouldn't do that. Most players will pick a mod manager to install all their mods, and won't want to install just one or two mods using a different manager, as doing so prevents their preferred manager from being properly aware of that mod. Players who choose to install using e.g. MO2 or Vortex can still use Wrye Bash purely for the bash patch (and for Vortex, to adjust individual mods in their load order since Vortex doesn't include that feature).

 

I consider MO2 to be the best mod manager available for Oblivion and Skyrim. In fact MO2 supports Bain (so does TMM but I don't know how successfully, I never tried), so if Cobl only had a Bain installer then you'll only be excluding Vortex (and NMM and OMM).

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21 minutes ago, haama said:

and related - is there a way to do save game management? I see Nexus has a "is this a save game" selection, so maybe FOMOD/Vortex does something? I have a lot of test saves lying around for different overhauls, would like to include them in the repo

 

Wrye Bash has a Save Game tab, where you can see which dependencies each save has and what the expected load order is for that save. TMM & OMM do not, I don't think MO2 does but cannot remember for sure. Don't know about Vortex and NMM.

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2 hours ago, haama said:

I guess the goal is to make a subset of Cobl simple enough that LOOT or BOSS can place them. Parts like the Tweaks and TNR require a Bash Patch if you're using practically anything other than Cobl and the specified overhaul, so not sure how easy they are for either project to place.

I guess that there is a trend among the people who are using LOOT rather than BOSS, because LOOT covers more than one game in fact LOOT cover basically every moddable TES games hence my question.

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LOOT actually does quite well for both Skyrim and Oblivion as long as you're willing to give up the preconceptions that BOSS imposes. But as with all things modding, if it's not doing what's desired, the masterlist can be tweaked to provide.

LOOT at least handles official DLC properly, unlike how it was done for years with BOSS.

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Okay, I totally understand everything you all said. No I didn't. Was ignoring this while I worked on the modularization/github-ization project - that will take a bit yet so switching back to a quick v175 release. Speaking of which, I've done a bit of the reorg, simplified some things and updated the Bash Wizard, please take a look -

For v175, aiming to incorporate known changes/fixes from the last few years, especially UoP and some .dds fixes.

I did download the BOSS and LOOT master files and... umm... I'd like to hold off until v176 if the above changes don't blow everything up. What do you all think about some of the file name changes?

Edited by haama

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Has anyone played FCOM with Cobl, with Item Interchange? There are many lists in Cobl Tweaks - FCOM that reference and override Cobl lists that are no longer there. Looking at my notes, the Cobl Tweaks - FCOM plugin is old and shouldn't be needed anymore, the Cobl Tweaks - MMM4OOO plugin should be just fine (at least until we incorporate a Frans patch). Looking through Item Interchange - Placement for FCOM, it actually looks like both Tweaks are overwriting some important stuff, which should probably be changed/fixed/Bash-magicked?, but not in a way that makes the FCOM tweak better than the MMM4OOO tweak.

Ah, right, similar question - for those who play with Item Interchange, do you still use/need the Cobl Filter - late MERGE ONLY plugin?

Edited by haama

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In summary to the above,

I'm removing the Cobl Tweaks - FCOM patch and will just plop in the Cobl Tweaks - MMM4OOO patch if the player has both. If I'm missing something, please do not let me step on this landmine.

It looks like the Filter plugin only handles the Eat lists, which II leaves alone, so going to leave it separate and update the Wizard notes on just what it does.

Edited by haama

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Just a few notes:

  • Update BOSS for 

        Cobl Bash Patch Filter - Late MERGE ONLY.esp Version 1.53

        Cobl Patch - SI.esp Active

  • Missing wizard pictures e.g. for skip Item Interchange or II options
  • The Cobl Si.esp is not checked at the wizard end page.
  • MMM Gems and  Gem Dust: no check on MMM esp status (see old wizard)
  • Cobl Races, Balanced Races, TNR, Modders Only: Death Handling- are these not optional anymore? Shame, as each was quite well documented.

Has anything changed in the in-game menu? While looking for, it through the menus, the menu froze, so could never get back to desktop without logging off. No other window would show over it- so couldn't even drag a Task manager window over to the other monitor- there was once a nifty way around it but forget. 

Yeah, never played with FCOM, a delicate beast at best. Hasn't been updated since 2012.

What did the Cobl Filter - late MERGE ONLY plugin do? I think Vacuity had a reason to keep it in, as it worked in well with his separate mod as well.

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Thanks for taking a look Schtearn!

  • Boss - cool, never realized they checked versions. Contributions are pretty straight forward so I'll work on that once I get an actual release candidate for you all.
    • Are there any other fields we should add to the descriptions? I see CRC, which is nice if Bash or something automatically calculates and adds it to the description. Groups are already there. Anything else?
    • Loot seems easy enough and way behind so I'll work on that too.
  • Wizard pictures - *le sigh* okay, we'll get some pictures for the concepts of bulky and not quite so bulky and everything else. Easy enough to take some shots in game. Does the infinite item on arrow shot glitch still work?
  • MMM Gems and Gems Dust - I was assuming if the player had extracted it from the MMM archive they also extracted MMM itself. Easy enough to add the check.
  • Missing Cobl SI and Races - this is why I need a dev/build script. I work on too many parts of the flow simultaneously :D Okay, I posted an archive that didn't have my most recent work apparently. Once I incorporate UoP fixes and run the DDS optimizer I will push a release candidate with the fixes.
  • Death Handling - are any mods using this? I'll release a separate modder's delight archive for people to look at. Still haven't decided if that will be a github only thing or not.
  • Cobl Filter - late MERGE ONLY - actually, it only adds items from other mods to the Eat lists. I was somewhat disappointed, thought it'd be more uber, push things out to the those mods. Anyway, it is separate from II so leaving it as a separate decision.
  • In-game menu - nothing yet. I need to do a second look at it, the patch/coblize system, and other changes from 173 and 174 and my "lost" versions. But that will wait for v176.

Wizard question - is there a way to get more than one line in the top box? That is a severe limitation.

Cobl Races tag question - it has both NPCFaces and NoMerge, so wouldn't NoMerge cancel out any other tag? Or does it merge the NPC face changes but still force the player to activate the mod? I'm strongly pushing that using TNR should require a Bash Patch, so guidance would be appreciated.

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I believe that it is not possible to to have multiple lines of text in the top description box. It is intended as a title box or a short question, with details going into the description box below for each individual option.

 

NoMerge is meant to prevent an ESP from being merged and disabled, however I found that it does not work (ESP still gets disabled). The tag MustBeActiveIfImported is more reliable.

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On 2020-09-19 at 8:33 PM, haama said:

Wizard question - is there a way to get more than one line in the top box?

I just checked the Oblivion XP wizard and I think it is possible.

Quote

This wizard will help you install Oblivion XP. After installation, please read Oblivion XP Readme.pdf for a full description of all the features and configuration options. The readme will be installed in the Docs folder under Data.

Press Next to continue.

 

Edited by Leonardo

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Adopted UoP fixes into Cobl as best I could, without adding it as a master. I really don't see any way around it though, there are UoP specific factions for several NPCs. Also, there are many new scripts, packages, and some dialog. I believe those are all safe to just copy but in terms of work required, would be much easier to just set UoP as a master. That would also allow us, in the future, if UoP is still being updated frequently, to create a Races merge file and merge on to any new UoP. As always, any suggestions are appreciated.

And also implied, there is now a Cobl Races Patch - SI to incorporate some fixes and changes between Vanilla and SI. Working on a DLC patch next.

Thanks Leonardo, I'll take a look then.

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It's highly unlikely that UOP will see another update anytime soon.

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Few more changes this time around

Nearly ready for a release. Still need to copy over the UoP scripts, classes, AI packages, and figure out what to do with the dialog. Couple other easy fixes and then ready for some actual testing. Releasing now as signs of life, if anyone wants to take a look, do some testing with the list of todos in mind.

  • Simplified mod package and install wizard.
    • Removed FCOM patch - it was never meant to be released. Use Cobl Patch - MMM4OOO instead, along with FCOM-COBL that comes with <a href="https://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/12249">FCOM</a>.
    • Removed modder/developer mods. They're still available in the v1.74 download and will be available on a public version control repository.
    • Renamed Cobl Tweaks to Cobl Patch to better convery their purpose.
  • Incorporated latest Unofficial Oblivion Patches, OOO, Item Interchange fixes and updates.
    • Do not use Cobl Tweaks from the <a href="https://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/46199">official OOO</a> download or <a href="https://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/50188">OOO - Upgraded</a>.
    • UoP updates - created patch mods for Shivering Isles, DLCs (all of them in a single patch) to reflect the correct fix for those "versions" of the game.
    • UoP updates - many small changes in Races, TNR, TNR SI, Glue, SI, Salmo, Patch - MMM4OOO and Patch - OOO placed items swap. Won't list all of them but here are the ones specifically brought up before
      • Patch SI - Added no low level processing to Swamp Trolls to keep them in place (following UoP example).
      • TNR, TNR SI - Added many missing eyes, hair values for various NPCs.
    • Fix for Item Interchange - could not build Bash Patch with latest Better Cities.
    • Added Frostcrag Reborn De-Isolated patch for Item Interchange.
    • Fix for OOO - removed version check.
    • Changes for MMM - no idea what I did there, will look at the backup files later.
  • Glue - corrected some missing ore, hide supplies from various merchants.
  • Added version control information for cross-mod checks.
  • Updated readme links.
  • Races - I think I fixed some new game character taunts? Was that a problem, they looked kinda sus.
  • Salmo - Reduced some conflict possibilities with Salmo AI packages, might fix some CTDs?
  • Salmo - used less flaky disable world object method, might fix some CTDs?
  • Still to do:
    • Finish UoP incorporation - copy over UoP scripts, AI packages, classes to avoid using UoP as a master. The cobFixDeathAnim already does this.
    • Finish UoP incorporation - not sure what to do about UoP factions. Suggest a Bash Patch? Bite the bullet and make Cobl Races dependent on UoP? Copy them over and use a script to switch them out?
    • DDS fixes, optimzations.
    • Update omod conversion.
    • Update LOOT and BOSS masterlists.
    • Races - move some dialog changes (disposition) that were part of RBP to the Cobl Races - Balanced plugin.
    • Races - review and update the Boethia/Tournament of the Ten Bloods scripts.
    • There were 2 pathgrids removed in Glue - 0009F8F0 in TrollCandleCamp and 00094C5F in NayonCamp... does anyone know why?
    • Further Bash Wizard tweaks to check for old tweaks files, MMM - Gems and Gem Dust without MMM, add some more pictures.
    • Probably need to update some Bash tags, will review those.
  • Waiting for v176:
    • Modularize Cobl into smaller esps that will be glued back together with TES4Edit scripts. Publish on a public version control/repository such as Github.
    • Requires a bit of re-arrangement for options, general functions. A few renames.
    • Allow multiple Patches to be selected, different groups for overhauls or without.
    • Review patch/coblize system.
    • Review Salmo.
    • Review grinder.

 

Edited by haama

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6 hours ago, haama said:

Update omod conversion

I think you should get rid of omod once and for all, because only Wrye Bash can handle Cobl properly and OBMM cannot.

Besides, how many people are using OBMM these days when most people already using Wrye Bash for SSE and/or FO4.

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I'm happy with one less thing to look into and do :D Alright then, it's gone. I'll still create simple installs for Vortex users (just Main and the Glues, maybe separately the Race stuff and overhaul patches) so that should cover a wide bit of the audience.

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4 hours ago, Leonardo said:

I think you should get rid of omod once and for all, because only Wrye Bash can handle Cobl properly and OBMM cannot.

Besides, how many people are using OBMM these days when most people already using Wrye Bash for SSE and/or FO4.

 

An irritatingly high number it seems, because they follow popular guides for which mods to use, and those guides recommend OBMM.

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Does any of these guides even mention that only Wrye Bash can handle Cobl properly?

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I haven't read the guides myself and don't know what guides they are, so have no clue whether they even include Cobl. I've had a more than a few people commenting in the BC or UL comments stating they use OBMM, and when I advised they should switch to something which isn't more than 10 years abandoned, they reply that they're just following a guide so will stick with OBMM.

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I see.

@haama Have you consider to create a light installation of Cobl (most of its feature are removed due for not using Wrye Bash when installing Cobl), just to satisfy OBMM users?

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@LeonardoThat's exactly what I was thinking. Need to figure out just how lite though. Definitely Cobl Main/Core and Glue. Definitely not Item Interchange. Don't know on Patches and Races. Non-overhaul patches and TNR really should be using a Bash Patch, and the less in the omod script the less dual maintenance we need to do, so I'm leaning towards Bash-only for those two.

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5 hours ago, haama said:

Don't know on Patches and Races.

I bet both needs to be handle by the bashed patch, so excluding them in a lite installation might be needed.

And definitely not the Cobl Late Filter MERGE ONLY mod (included in Cobl 1.73).

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Posted (edited)

Okay, got the UOP incorporation, some Races patches separation, and the wizard locked down. Now on to updating Bash Tags. Never really used it back in the day, always had a simple mod loadout focused on new items. So trying out a bit, viewing in xEdit to make sure I see the expected results, and.... I'm kind-of confused on what it's doing, just looking at Salmo the Baker.

One, I'm lost on why anyone added Bash tags to Salmo. It must remain active and many of its edits can have only a single winner, no merging possible. Actor tags - okay, those can merge and those are useful. Names (had to add in Cell name), owners, graphics - those are all single winner so really want to suggest Salmo loads after a Bash Patch.

Two, the mod must be deactivated to import the changes. Is that expected behavior, that the player would need to deactivate the mod, rebuild the Bash Patch, then reactivate it? If Salmo is active when rebuilding no records are imported into the Bash Patch. And if Salmo is deactivated then there's no point to the plugin. Ah, okay, I wasn't activating the Bash Patch afterwards because I just wanted to look at it. Guess they have the activation tied to some dependency logic, I was thinking it'd be tied to the collection of tags. That's solved then. Thanks for the hint @Leonardo

Three, Invent.Add and Invent.Remove are ignored. I tried removing the Salmo apron, new record in Salmo, but still no changes. Expecting to see removal of LowerPants05 "Sack Cloth Pants" and LowerShirt05 "Sack Cloth Shirt" and addition of LowerPants01 "Blacksmith's pants" (vanilla) and salBakerApron (Salmo).

Current Bash Tag list (slightly modified from Loot version):

Actors.ACBS - new
Actors.AIData
Actors.AIPackages
Actors.Stats
C.Name - new
C.Owner
Factions
Graphics
Invent.Add
Invent.Remove
MustBeActiveIfImported - new, have tried with and without this
NPC.Class
Names

Gonna work on the omod script a bit, maybe look at some other patches see if they make more sense. Cobl Patch - Vanilla kind-of makes sense on its own, but seeing some unexpected differences between it and Cobl Patch - SI, not seeing if it really needs to have the IIM and Filter tag, or could just use Deactivate

Edited by haama

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2 hours ago, haama said:

Is that expected behavior, that the player would need to deactivate the mod, rebuild the Bash Patch, then reactivate it?

From what I understand, no the player doesn't need to reactive it instead the Bashed Patch makes it active.

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