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Leonardo

Is S.T.E.P lying about mod manament?

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After I read this section I quoted below in this S.T.E.P guide I find it to have misleading information about MO vs Wrye Bash as a mod manager, because most people know that only the use of the bashed patch in Wrye Bash is essential for a modded and stable Skyfall.  Which MO cannot handle without Wrye Bash and despite that S.T.E.P only support MO, so I'm thinking that S.T.E.P is a promotion site for MO nothing else IMO.

 

 


1.C. Install Utilities Applications and utilities that aid in Skyfall mod management.

While mods can be installed manually, it is not recommended. A mod-management utility is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED in order to keep track of a complex setup like STEP. These utilities also make it exponentially simpler to deconstruct a STEP install in order to update to a new STEP version, and to update versions of the mods. This is impossible to do simply or efficiently (or even correctly) otherwise.

There are several utilities that may be used to manage the STEP setup; however, STEP now officially supports only Mod Organizer for reasons stated in the guide introduction. Although Wrye Bash is a mod manager, STEP recommends that it only be used as a helper application to Mod Organizer exclusively for the functionality of the Bashed Patch. The reason for the limited support of Wrye Bash is due to simplicity of this guide. Users who wish to use Wrye Bash can easily use that mod manager to install and maintain STEP. Wrye Bash users can use the Wrye Bash Guide for detailed instructions on setting up that exceedingly excellent modding utility package.

 

WTF!  Wrye Bash is consider to be a helper application to MO and NOT the opposite. :blink:

 

 

 

Of course anyone have the right to express their opinion in which may or may not agrees with me and I need to respect that.  Thanks for reading. :)

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I kind of agree:

The only possible line in defence of S.T.E.P. is that Wrye Bash is old and MO is new.

Old is bad and new is good.  :celebration:

 

NMM is still being maintained as well. Although functionality is minimal, the complexity of code in that is at least par with MO.

WB still works perfectly for me, but it's only a matter of time before a new OS comes along and says no.  :hand:

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I'll have to check out MO before I can really form an opinion on it. Off the top, I don't like the idea of using something that stores files in other locations and tries to control how BSA's are loaded.

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It's not lying as it does not say anything untrue. It is also not just promoting MO. The guide clearly states (and it's in the quote above) that they have chosen to support MO because it is simpler for the guide - and therefore WB will be referred to merely for the functionality it provides which MO lacks. That is perfectly reasonable, and is exactly the same reason why with the Oblivion mod Better Cities (and thus the BC Wiki) does not support NMM - it's too complicated to support every different mod organising tool which exists, especially one I do not use and know nothing about.

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They also provide a Bash guide, which they link to. Basically, they don't want to clutter their guides with duplication so they chose the one that they prefer to use as an example while taking the others to their own pages.

Edited by Visceral Moonlight

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They also provide a Bash guide, which they link to. Basically, they don't want to clutter their guides with duplication so they chose the one that they prefer to use as an example while taking the others to their own pages.

I know they mention that, but if you read the introduction just above the STEP 1 Pre-Installation Setup section, then you probably realize that Wrye Bash is definitely needed at least to have some important information about how to do certain things in Wrye Bash.

 

NOTE: It is particularly important that novice modders begin with clean installations of Steam & Skyrim in order to be successful with the 'quick' setup first time around, so PLEASE READ EACH SECTION CAREFULLY, as no information included in this guide is irrelevant!

I also find this to be just irrelevant, because you can disable updates for Skyrim in Steam when playing Skyrim and only updating Skyrim when not playing it.  I've disable updates for all Steam games when playing them and have no issues.

 

Changing settings in the Skyrim Launcher can undo user-configured INI tweaks. Steam has also been known to update the INIs under certain conditions. This does not apply to MO users except if running the Skyrim Launcher or Steam from within MO. To avoid 'unapproved' alterations to these configuration files, STEP recommends to set the INI files as "read only" after all the tweaks are in place.

This STEP recommendation about setting the INI files to read-only is definitely asking for trouble, especially for the people who have installed Skyrim in the default C:\Program Files(x86) folder, which is a UAC protected system folder in Windows.

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I don't see your point regarding Bash. They're focusing on the method that they prefer as to not clutter things up. They also provide a Bash guide. I don't see a problem here.

 

The point with starting fresh is to ensure that you don't muck up your install with things that could likely cause issues. For example, by installing something that is incompatible with something you had installed already.

 

Setting the INI files to read only is to ensure that something doesn't overwrite your changes without you wanting it to. How is it asking for trouble? You can still change them, it just means they can't be changed without your explicit permission.

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I don't see any of your points, Leo. They do not say "don't use Wrye Bash" - instead they say "we're going to tell you how to set up what we describe here by using MO, because it's easy for us to explain that."

 

You haven't specified which part of the line you quoted you consider to be irrelevant, but none of it is irrelevant. Starting with a clean install is definitely required if you are intending to install STEP, especially if you intend to do a "quick" setup (since a quick setup would mean less detailed explanations so higher chance of messing up if you get it wrong). Advising users to read each section carefully is not irrelevant, that's exactly the same as any modder saying "please read the readme" which we all have to say to a lot of people. Finally, stating that no part of the guide is irrelevant is not irrelevant as too many people when following guides and instructions think they can skip bits because they know better, and then complain when the result isn't what was expected.

 

 

 

This STEP recommendation about setting the INI files to read-only is definitely asking for trouble, especially for the people who have installed Skyrim in the default C:\Program Files(x86) folder, which is a UAC protected system folder in Windows.

 

 

Any people installing STEP who have installed Skyrim to the default location has not read each section carefully, as it very clearly states in this section to avoid installing to the default location due to UAC. Thus proving the relevance of the aforementioned section.

 

I set my INI files to read-only for both Oblivion and Skyrim to ensure that my own custom tweaks don't get undone by the game. Just intentionally changing a setting in the Launcher will also automatically change other settings, this is a known fact (I believe it's the shadow resolution, but cannot recall precisely).

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I set my INI files to read-only for both Oblivion and Skyrim to ensure that my own custom tweaks don't get undone by the game.

In contrast to you I don't set the .INI files to read-only, instead I'm just copying them then I start the game.

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I set my INI files to read-only for both Oblivion and Skyrim to ensure that my own custom tweaks don't get undone by the game.

In contrast to you I don't set the .INI files to read-only, instead I'm just copying them then I start the game.

 

 

Rather than copy and paste a backup of the INI every time before you start the game, try setting them to read-only. Then you won't have to.

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Setting your ini files to read-only means you couldn't make any changes to game settings while playing. That's a pretty big inconvenience for something that's totally avoidable if you're using SKSE (or OBSE for Oblivion). Stay out of the launcher if you don't want your stuff messed with :P

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I set my INI files to read-only for both Oblivion and Skyrim to ensure that my own custom tweaks don't get undone by the game.

In contrast to you I don't set the .INI files to read-only, instead I'm just copying them then I start the game.

 

 

Rather than copy and paste a backup of the INI every time before you start the game, try setting them to read-only. Then you won't have to.

I think you misunderstood me, because I didn't mean to copy the content and what I meant was to copy all original .INI files before editing them into an archive.  So there is no need to paste anything back into an .INI file(s).

Edited by Leonardo

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Setting your ini files to read-only means you couldn't make any changes to game settings while playing. That's a pretty big inconvenience for something that's totally avoidable if you're using SKSE (or OBSE for Oblivion). Stay out of the launcher if you don't want your stuff messed with :P

 

Once the INI is set up you would never need to make changes to game settings while playing. But if you do decide one day to alter a setting you can always remove the read-only flag, then re-flag it again next time you exit the game.

 

 

 

 

I set my INI files to read-only for both Oblivion and Skyrim to ensure that my own custom tweaks don't get undone by the game.

In contrast to you I don't set the .INI files to read-only, instead I'm just copying them then I start the game.

 

 

Rather than copy and paste a backup of the INI every time before you start the game, try setting them to read-only. Then you won't have to.

I think you misunderstood me, because I didn't mean to copy the content and what I meant was to copy all original .INI files before editing them into an archive.  So there is no need to paste anything back into an .INI file(s).

 

 

That's a waste of time. The games recreate an original INI if you delete the existing one so there is no need to backup the original INIs. Also that would not in any way protect you from unwanted INI edits caused by the launcher or game while flagging the INI to read-only will (or doing what I thought you were saying, which is backing up the edited INIs and restoring them before launching the game each time to reset any unwanted edits from the launcher or game).

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Once the INI is set up you would never need to make changes to game settings while playing. But if you do decide one day to alter a setting you can always remove the read-only flag, then re-flag it again next time you exit the game.

Until you forget you did that 6 months later and can't figure out why the game just went loopy on you and won't update the settings :P

 

People have started help threads because of that very thing. Just stay out of the launcher. Problem solved. OBSE is so ubiquitous now that it would be genuinely surprising to find someone who isn't using it.

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I always have a backup of all my ini files. I'll let Oblivion recreate the ini file on occasion, but when I do, I use Winmerge to compare the changes and will decide on which changes stay.

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I always have a backup of all my ini files. I'll let Oblivion recreate the ini file on occasion, but when I do, I use Winmerge to compare the changes and will decide on which changes stay.

Have you tried ExamDiff before?

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After I read this section I quoted below in this S.T.E.P guide I find it to have misleading information about MO vs Wrye Bash as a mod manager, because most people know that only the use of the bashed patch in Wrye Bash is essential for a modded and stable Skyfall.  Which MO cannot handle without Wrye Bash and despite that S.T.E.P only support MO, so I'm thinking that S.T.E.P is a promotion site for MO nothing else IMO.

 

 

1.C. Install Utilities Applications and utilities that aid in Skyfall mod management.

While mods can be installed manually, it is not recommended. A mod-management utility is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED in order to keep track of a complex setup like STEP. These utilities also make it exponentially simpler to deconstruct a STEP install in order to update to a new STEP version, and to update versions of the mods. This is impossible to do simply or efficiently (or even correctly) otherwise.

There are several utilities that may be used to manage the STEP setup; however, STEP now officially supports only Mod Organizer for reasons stated in the guide introduction. Although Wrye Bash is a mod manager, STEP recommends that it only be used as a helper application to Mod Organizer exclusively for the functionality of the Bashed Patch. The reason for the limited support of Wrye Bash is due to simplicity of this guide. Users who wish to use Wrye Bash can easily use that mod manager to install and maintain STEP. Wrye Bash users can use the Wrye Bash Guide for detailed instructions on setting up that exceedingly excellent modding utility package.

 

WTF!  Wrye Bash is consider to be a helper application to MO and NOT the opposite. :blink:

Of course anyone have the right to express their opinion in which may or may not agrees with me and I need to respect that.  Thanks for reading. :)

Leonardo, it comes across to me as if you are on a personal crusade against Mod Organizer.  Last year you posted on Bethesda forums that someone should uninstall MO and start using WB, even though you admitted you didn't know much about MO.  As a modder yourself, you should be well aware that giving advice like that is just not cricket.  I actually replied later on in that thread as I was rather perturbed by what you wrote.  I've also read your comments elsewhere on this matter and I'm sorry to say that I don't find them very credible.

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Although it doesn't seem to be the practice these days for modders to directly modify ini settings in the install process (e.g. Darnified, Fomod, bat), it's nice to keep a shadow copy of the ini in order to Winmerge what changes are made.

Mod Organizer (Skyrim) has more downloads and more endorsements than Wrye Bash (Skyrim). Not so with Oblivion. If WB handles Skyrim as it does Oblivion, there's no doubt the Stats would go up.

The beauty of WB in Oblivion was that it was a one stop shop for anything game related. I stand with Leonardo in content but not style. WB a helper app? For me it's the Alpha & Omega of Modding.

 

If MO did their own leveled list patches (not hard) there wouldn't be need for any of this niggling anyhow nohow.  :poke:

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If MO did their own leveled list patches (not hard) there wouldn't be need for any of this niggling anyhow nohow.  :poke:

There's no need for the niggle in the first place.  I use WM (Yacoby fork) for Morrowind and MO for Skyrim.  Never had a problem with either and am very grateful for the effort gone into both.  The unfair maligning of MO needs to stop though.

Edited by Loopy_cecil

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There's no need for the niggle in the first place.  I use WB (Yacoby fork) for Morrowind and MO for Skyrim.  Never had a problem with either and am very grateful for the effort gone into both.  The unfair maligning of MO needs to stop though.

I assume you mean Wrye Mash and not Wrye Bash, unless you run Sharlikran's Python 2.7.8 dev build of Wrye Mash which I do.

 

If you want us to stop the crusade against MO then try to convince me and other people that MO are superior to WB when it comes to mod management, but also in the same time tell other people to stop the crusade against WB.  Which I really doubt that you can do.

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There's an old adage: two wrongs don't make a right. If neither side gives, then it'll never stop. They both manage mods in different ways but they both perform the same task. Just because you prefer Bash and someone else prefers MO doesn't mean this whole war needs to be happening. Just because someone prefers one tool over the other doesn't mean they're wrong. They have reasons for using one, just as you have reasons for using the one you use.

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I assume you mean Wrye Mash and not Wrye Bash

Yes.

 

If you want us to stop the crusade against MO then try to convince me and other people that MO are superior to WB when it comes to mod management, but also in the same time tell other people to stop the crusade against WB.  Which I really doubt that you can do.

How about not recommending people uninstall MO when you've also admitted you know little about it.  How about basing your opinion on evidence and not on conjecture...

 

There is no crusade against WB from what I've seen.

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