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Sifonseal

FOMO CraftyBits General Discussion

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=           =           =           =  Fomo CraftyBits  =           =           =           =

 

 

This is the place to post any general feedback, suggestions, etc... if you want to join the team as a modder or tester and help make CraftyBits even better simply let us know ^^.

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Permanent Buildings in Craftybits?

 

With the planned integration of Craftybits into FOMO, it could be interesting to discuss the pros and cons of allowing the construction of permanent buildings using Craftybits mechanisms. There are a couple of structures you can build with CB, such as yurts, raised platforms and lean-tos, but nothing more substantial. At one point, we started down that road, but it was poorly executed and I took those elements out again. At the same time, there appears to be interest in such things, so perhaps a new discussion would be worthwhile.

 

To begin with, allow me to explain why I am against the idea. There are two major arguments. Looked at from the perspective of game play, the world is falling apart with the player the key to saving it. Building your own house at such a time seems like a ridiculous distraction and an unwise investment, given that if the player fails in the main quest, the house won't be of much use for long.

 

The other argument against permanent buildings is technical. There is no way to change pathing dynamically, in response to the creation of a new building. As a result, anything moving through the area, except the player, is going to bump into the building and be hindered from moving forward. An extreme case would be if you built a house on a road, which would block the patrolling imperial guards and anything else that tried to use the roads, including NPCs moving to distant locations. This is fairly likely to cause game breaking bugs. The only solution to this problem would be to allow construction of buildings in pre-designated places, like Cropsford or like the way it is done in Skyrim, where you can build, but only in certain pre-designated spots.

 

On a tangent, the temporary structures in CB already allow considerable potential for abuse, though no one has ever complained about it. Perhaps no one has thought of it. But against any enemy without ranged attacks, hiding behind a lean-to in a narrow corridor is likely to be an effective way of keeping the enemy out of range, allowing you to kill even very superior enemies by chipping away at them with ranged weapons or spells, provided they lack regenerative capabilities. 

 

Please feel free to share your opinion about whether permanent structures should be allowed in CB or not. If there is enough interest, it would not be difficult to add such structures to CB, though it would be necessary to live with the limitations of inadequate pathing, which is a problem which cannot be solved.

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Permanent buildings are certainly something I had considered as well but, alas, I was confronted by the same major issues. While the story perspective issues don't bother me so much as I myself (and I assume others) have the main quest line entirely turned off (I am more enchanted by the general world than the epic quest to save it so I haven't actually played the main quest or even had the Oblivion crisis happen since my first play through), and of course the player might simply be settling down after the crisis if they did indeed play through the main story.

 

The real issue as you said is pathing... one thing that there isn't a good work around for at all... at least yet. Though if there is enough interest is actually possible to create a work around for even the pathing issue with scripts, though the method I am thinking of will limit the number of buildings place-able because each will need to have several pre-created markers. While there is no limit to the number of buildings theoretically, each will take several unique scripts (Because of how Oblivion handles dynamic references (Or doesn't rather) we will need to use pre-created markers), several activators and markers and a ridiculous amount of trig for placing/moving/rotating these markers with the building and again in the scripts to determine where the colliding object is trying to go ^^'. On that topic I was actually quite surprised when I heard how robust the town construction system in Fallout 4 was, since then I have been interested in knowing how they changed the pathing system to allow for that level of flexibility.

 

As for abuse-able aspects of mods, personally I think that isn't really an issue, honestly in even Vanilla Oblivion there are so many things that can be abused (e.g. restoration basically makes you a god as it can buff other skills and attributes including ITSELF and your magika pool), and honestly with having always had access to the console for a quick "kill" command or infinite gold no one is really looking for how mods can be abused to make themselves more powerful. The console is a great roleplaying tool for sure, letting you customise the items you and/or your party starts with when starting a new character or even allowing you to better customise the stats of your character or other NPCs, as well as much else. On the off chance that there is someone out there who actually finds it a bundle of fun to go around consoling down enemies they can have their fun putting indestructible objects between them and their enemies. Ultimately if people want to cheat they will find a way, its their own loss and not something we should really worry too much about when modding in new game systems. 

 

Finally on my own interest in permanent buildings, while it is a fun concept and very much doable, I generally mod what I want to have in my own game for the sake of my own fun, seeing as how placing permanent buildings can bring about more than a few issues and given the fact that I could just as well have the same thing done much more smoothly by dropping the building in through CS, its not really something I personally want to push for either. 

 

But, as Munch said, it would indeed be nice to know how others feel about the topic. 

Edited by Sifonseal

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Ah fair point, what we mean is the ability to place buildings ranging from stables or fountains to farm houses or guild buildings that you can enter all while in-game, and naturally the ability to move/rotate these structures about to put them just where you want.

This way you can find a nice spot of land and build your little farm there, or your glorious estate, or even begin your own little town.

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The interior pathing isn't so much of an issue, as the general layout for any given interior mesh is pretty predictable (With the exception of whether there will be a large feature, e.g. a dining table set up in the middle of a room), you can generally assume that just pathing along the main paths between spaces will be enough and it won't get in the way too much. Though I do like the idea of several layout options for each interior, so we can have presets for whether there is a large feature in the middle of the room or not, some menu to change between these layout for each interior and various interiors with various layouts wouldn't be had to make.

 

However in the actual exterior world the dropping in of a massive building in the middle of the woods can really mess up pathing. Which really is the main issue with the whole idea. 

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The easiest way to approach this would probably be to make use of existing buildings and allow them to be upgraded. The two that come immediately to mind would be to get the player involved in building Cropsford and the other would be to restore the burned out shop just NE of the Imperial City along the ring road a bit east of Memorial Cave. 

 

The way I see it, not everyone will be interested in such a thing, so it would be far better off as an add-on than as an intrinsic part of CB or FOMO. It might be possible to hack into Cropsford to make the reconstruction dependent on player actions rather than simply the passage of time. In practice it would be a fair bit like building houses in Hearthfire/Skyrim.

 

The problem with it, from a CB perspective, is that making barrels or other things takes a couple of hours of game time, while building a house would require the player's attention for days or weeks. The time jumps just aren't appropriate for the passage of days or more but just ignoring the passing time breaks the time-use paradigm of CB. If we accept that building houses is instant, the other logical extreme is to make everything instant, which would work fine, mechanistically, but compromises one of the core ideas of CB. It never seemed worth the trade-off to me and one of the few luxuries of modding is that you don't have to play by the "rules" that professionals do. If the CB team and I feel it is appropriate that time passes while you are building something, then we can set it up that way for the sake of "realism". I put "realism" in quotes because I am well aware of the limits of realism in the context of a fantasy game set in a fantasy world. There are obvious limits to how realistic the game can be, but the idea with CB is to go as far as you can in that direction before you just have to shrug your shoulders and say it is magic.  

 

The shop rebuild would take a skilled modeler. I'm sure Sifonseal has the skill, but it seems like a minor sideshow that would only distract him from more important work. I'm good with scripts, but I never learned to model and am not particularly interested in starting. If someone should be interested, I'd be prepared to discuss it. 

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Hi there, CraftyBits.

 

I've been working with building placement for years and there are three major issues.

 

1. Path grid

I had this problem long ago and asked the OBSE team for some way to handle path nodes via script. Scruggsy implemented a few functions, which you may find in the OBSE documentation.

Most functions just supply info about the nodes. Only one changes anything: SetPathNodeDisabled.  With it, you may disable pathnodes that will be under the building (which leads to the second problem, below). I still would like to have functions to create, move and connect nodes. 

 

2. Building size

There is no way to dynamically get the mesh width and depth. You will need that to disable trees, rocks, etc that are within the building boundaries, otherwise you will have tree branches popping out of the walls and windows.You actually need the 4 measures from the center of the mesh to the left, right, front and back boundaries (6, if you care about height). 

 

3. Multiple parts 

Another thing that may be an issue is the fact that a building may be composed of more than one mesh (like stairs in the wooden buildings in Bravil) or may have some 'adornments' (like a candle holder by the door). All the multiple parts have to move and rotate as one.

 

 

To release the Construction Suite mod, I spent several months trying several ways of measuring buildings and finally did measure all the vanilla buildings.As you place the building mesh, the script detects and disables nearby objects. You can even copy-paste buildings (copy from one place and 'paste' it somewhere else. Take a look. It may be part of what you want. It also has the math to position and rotate the buildings. This mod does not play with the path grid. I think the functions were not available at the time.

 

[Edit]  About realism and time passing, what I am planning to do in the Vox Populi mod is to apply a shader to the building mesh demonstrating that it is just a blueprint. After the player settles the final location, I will clear the area and place some construction material around and only place the final building a couple of days later. Would be nice to have a half finished mesh of each building to use in between, but the modeling work would be to much.

 

 

Edited by QQuix

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Thanks for chiming in with your experience QQuix ^^.

 

 

As you said there is no way I can think of either that can dynamically discern the size of any building mesh modular or whole, so sadly the only approach that will allow for any sort of automated overlapping static/tree disabling system is to have chosen meshes with their own individual scripts (I say individual but they will be mostly the same with some parameter alterations), as such the construction system naturally won't allow the liberty that your Construction Suite mod does allowing you to play with any static you see around. 

 

As for the issue of multiple parts, that can easily be sorted with a bit of trigonometry, in fact you can even build entire modular buildings part by part and assign them to a building (e.g. use a message box to set the modular component as part of Building 1) and then using a bit of trig to find their position vector from the main building we can then have them rotate/move/danceabout keeping the original shape of the modular composite construction.

The method of pathing I had though of that would be possible through scripting actually worked in the same way already, each construction mesh (e.g. Building) would have its own set of markers (Which in turn has their own activator), based on the manner in which an NPC entered the activator it would then assign a move command to the NPC to move to the appropriate marker (e.g. if an NPC walked into the left side of a building then based on the difference between its original entering position and its position the next frame we can discern the direction it wants to head in, if it entered at at 225' angel (0 being north) the script would send it to the marker below itself. As for the placement of the markers, they would simply be handled as some place-able/move-able objects which can be toggled visible or invisible through lets say some spell or some item like a "Layout map", once visible you would be able to set any marker as Market A and another as Market B, then you would be able to set Market B as the North, North-East, North-West, East etc.. connection from Marker A (And naturally Marker A would be assigned as the opposite for Marker B). 

The only thing that could really go wrong with this method is if Oblivion doesn't pick up the activation region for a moved activator, it is not something I have had to try before so I haven't tested it myself.

 

I hope the explanation above is clear enough ^^". If not I can go into more depth.

Edited by Sifonseal

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If you're keen to do this, then I would take the same approach that Beth did for Skyrim. I'm referring to the Hearthfires DLC. They had three preset locations in which you could build your house. They accomplished that by having all the house options in place already and the various options got enabled based on player selection. Now in Hearthfires, the player had to supply the materials and each phase showed up in stages, so it appeared that the house was actually being constructed.

 

Arthmoor has done this in Oblivion in his Faregyl and Sutch mods. I suggest contacting him (he's a member of TAL if you want to contact him here) and he'll direct you to the proper mods and give you some tips.

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Although its a lot of work, one or some of you may want to check out Real Time Settler - New Wave for F03:  http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout3/mods/7070/?
Though we all know building something like this from near scratch is a monumental undertaking, the frame work of RTS NW may be a good guide in how to make things work. Yes the system is a bit different but I imagine the capability is reachable. As for fountains, and other statics without interiors...that is easy, as the Redecorater Mod proved ;)
The hard part would be if you want to have scafolding stages etc, but as for calling up large statics and placing them...easy peasy.

I used that mod to put Sheogorath's elaborate fountain in my anvil backyard XD All in game menus...utilizing that mod I pimped my ride so to speak.. the Berius Manor complete with new tables, chairs, wall displays, paintings, I made it all in game, its still my favorite house. It couldn't do doors, bushes, or trees though...my only regret was not being able to make my own hedgemaze hehe

Edited by Lokichan

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 . . .

 

 

Ref. Multiple parts

You nailed it. It is just trig.

 

Ref. Building sizes

Not that bad. I can give you my file with the vanilla buildings. It includes the size of the main mesh, the relative position of additional parts, if any, and the position and teleport info on the doors, if any.

For custom buildings you may have created, I suppose the creator could provide the sizes and other info.

Problem would be restricted to unknown buildings added by other mods. If you intend to support these, you could have the player marking the four corners of the area he intends to place the building on and, from those markers you can locate any statics and trees within the area and disable them.

 

Ref. Path grid

Knowing the area, you can locate and disable the path nodes that are inside it, the same way you did with the statics and trees.

I do like your idea of ‘herding’ NPCs around the building, thou. I think it is doable, but you would have to determine whether he is just passing by or is heading for the building.

 

Which leads to a fourth concern: doors. You have to know the external doors in order to connect them with the corresponding internal doors. OBSE has all the functions you need, once you have the FormID of the two doors, so it is not a problem, really.

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@AB

As much as I like the idea of being able to set up shop wherever, I'm certainly not keen on getting to this right now, priorities you see.

I feel like doing it how Beth did it for Skyrim would be cheating out a bit, and honestly it would seem restricted compared to the rest of CB, personally I feel the idea should be shelved for now, however when we do get around to it I should like to go all out and construct whatever elaborate scripts it takes to have it be as dynamic as we can get it to be given the limitations of Oblivions engine.

 

@Loki

Ah yes, good old Real Time Settler, I hadn't considered looking into how they did it, but it is indeed a great suggestion. Sadly you are quite right, using simple direction alone will not let us direct an NPCs around a ramp tower to the door at the top, more curious now to see just how RTS did handle this (I've never really built anything elaborate with RTS so I don't know if they did indeed address the issue). 

 

@QQuix

As for those building specs QQuix, they would certainly save some time to have, even if we don't get around to it anytime soon, it would certainly help to have that work already done.

 

Hmm I actually had no idea you could disable/enable path nodes in run-time, never really looked into it, it would certainly make the process of redirecting cleaner.

As for the issue with NPCs heading for the building, in the first case where they are heading for the interior of the building because their package target NPC has wander in there (Or you have kidnapped them, I don't know how they got in there) or if some companion mod's home marker is moved in there, a simple check for whether the package target of the NPC initially entering dynamic pathing node graph is inside the interior cell associated with the graph can toggle a variable (Or simple add the NPC to a special faction temporarily) which indicates that at the door node it is not herded and can simply follow it's own package inside. Sadly In the second case where the NPC simply wants to wander into some space inside the general area of the building there will be and issue of them bouncing between a group of markers as they constantly try to walk into the building but get forced to pace around the edge instead... There isn't any perfect work around for this honestly, but some mock ones can be made up, thought I hope it won't be too much of an issue really since you will generally be placing buildings where none (or at least not many) normal NPC AI packages generally send NPCs, as such it would generally be people scripted to visit the building you placed or yourself and companions mostly visiting, both of which should be able to work their way around the building without issues.

And as you said, doors doors are basically a non-issue compared to the whole pathing mess. 

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Here you go:  https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/35770921/QQuix%20Library%20-%20Buildings%20NEW.7z

 

It is a txt file formatted as a standard INI file with each sections name within brackets and a lot Key=Value lines below.

 

The section name is the vanilla FormID of the base object, the key=values are self explanatory, I hope.

 

You may also look into the Construction Suite esp. I am pretty sure there are one or more scripts that load the same data into arrays.

 

(I cant check it because I just upgraded to Windows 10 and Oblivion stopped working. Tried to uninstall it and the uninstall process crashes, so I am stuck and have no idea when i will get to fix it)

Edited by QQuix

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Thanks QQuix ^^.

 

Sorry about the delayed response, was a bit tied up over the weekend. 

 

Shame about your Oblivion install, are you sure Win10 considers it installed? If not a simple mass delete of its files in MyDocs and its installation folder should be fine. You could try installing it over its current install, then uninstalling (This sounds silly but it works). If it is in your registry you could try a manual uninstall, I have no idea how that is done in Win10 though, a quick google search will sort that out though surely. These kinds of things can happen if you are fond of moving system directories around (I've moved a few around myself for various reasons, one being I didn't like saving all my Oblivion saves at 10-15mb a pop onto my solid state drive that houses my OS, as such MyDocs was moved to another location on another drive). 

 

 

@Loki

Holo ^^b, always nice to run into run into other fans of the show.

Edited by Sifonseal

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Sifonseal's advice sounds good to me, QQuix. I'm running Oblivion under Windows 10, so there is no fundamental problem with it. On this machine, I did a clean install of W10, then accessed Oblivion present on a second hard drive. I don't recall how I got the info into the registry, but Sifonseal's recommendation sounds like the best approach.

 

One thing that did permanently change for me is that the CS and CSE now need admin rights to run, while they did not using W7. It is a bit annoying and a minor risk, but there doesn't seem to be an alternative. Because they need admin rights and I access the CSE via Bash, I had to give Bash admin rights as well. 

 

Despite the minor problems, personally I like W10 a lot. I was pretty happy with W7 and a lot less happy with W8. W10 seems like a successful fusion of the best features of each. W8 tried too hard to hide things from experienced users and was too geared to touch screen use. W10 feels a lot more like it was meant for a proper desktop computer. My upgrade experience was flawless on the 2 machines without Bluray players, though the upgrade on my main machine with a Bluray drive proved to be tricky until I figured out I had to take the drive offline because W10 doesn't support it. I still don't have a solution for that problem, but I don't really need the Bluray player on a regular basis, so I just sort of forgot about it.

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Sifonseal, Im sorry if I disappoint but I have no idea what show it is you speak of. If its my avatar then I will not lie lol, I am known as a ninja kitty girl since FFXI came out. This particular picture was cute so I put her as my avatar. If you tell me the name of the show I will check it out though, I do enjoy anime now and then :)

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You are accessing CSE through Bash o.o? Seems like too much trouble, in my own case my Bash takes a bit of time to get up and running each time while CSE launches instantly, given how some simple actions can cause damage that is a bother to clean up I am constantly opening and closing CSE (Not to mention other annoyances like how it modifies mod dates so they cant be sorted by last modified when you want to keep a store of previous versions). It is simpler to make a shortcut to "Launch CSE.bat" and give it a nice CS icon ^^.

 

I haven't yet switched my main computer over to Win10, though time is quickly running out and I am feeling like I may be left with no choice, I do fear that it might well leave quite a mess to clean up after the change over. I've been meaning to do a bit more research, to decide if I should in fact make the switch, but just the fact that DirectX12 will not be supported on Win7 is pretty brutal given how amazing DirectX12 is...

 

 

@Loki

I did indeed mean your avatar ^^. While the art style for the image is a little more cutesy than that used in the show, it comes from a quaint little anime by the name of Spice and Wolf, which is basically the story of a simple travelling merchant doing business, where nothing exciting really happens but it is a very charming kind of boring ^^. Definitely worth a watch for even non-anime fans.

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I got to uninstall using an external uninstaller (Revo Uninstaller), but the same problem happens when trying to install (the installer crashes before the first screen) . Detains in this Windows 10 Forums,

 

Last Friday, while looking for a solution for another problem, I noticed that Microsoft had an offer to upgrade my Win8 to Win10, for free, until July, 29, so I took it. My hunch is that the upgrade process messed up something. I wish I had the option of a clean Win10 install. I still have an option to roll back to Win8 for 30 days, but if  the upgrade process messed up things, as I believe, I doubt the downgrade process would fix it and I may end up worse than I am now..

 

[Edit] Sifonseal, watch out for this MS offer, it seems that the "there is no free lunch" saying is right, after all.lol

Edited by QQuix

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Spice and Wolf! Okay, yeah my friend Joe keeps telling me to watch that one, I have it on my que to watch. I thought in this picture she was a kitty in the avatar lol. It still fits me though ^^, my tribal name means Bright Wolf, heh

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I got to uninstall using an external uninstaller (Revo Uninstaller), but the same problem happens when trying to install (the installer crashes before the first screen) . Detains in this Windows 10 Forums,

 

Last Friday, while looking for a solution for another problem, I noticed that Microsoft had an offer to upgrade my Win8 to Win10, for free, until July, 29, so I took it. My hunch is that the upgrade process messed up something. I wish I had the option of a clean Win10 install. I still have an option to roll back to Win8 for 30 days, but if  the upgrade process messed up things, as I believe, I doubt the downgrade process would fix it and I may end up worse than I am now..

 

[Edit] Sifonseal, watch out for this MS offer, it seems that the "there is no free lunch" saying is right, after all.lol

Hi QQuix,

If you don't mind my asking, where is your Oblivion installation located? In my experience, W10 treats everything outside of windows own folders like they are off-limits, so it isn't apparent how it could have messed Oblivion up. Installing Oblivion into Program Files (x86) is a bad idea, though default, but it seems unlikely you would make that mistake. If you have Oblivion in your Documents folder, that might be part of the problem because I think W10 handles that a little differently. But the best solution is to have a separate folder for Oblivion, ideally on a partition of its own. 

 

I'm pretty sure you can install Oblivion more than once on the same computer, in different locations. My suggestion is that you try installing Oblivion fresh into a fresh location, outside Program Files and Documents and on a fresh partition, if you can create one. Even if the old install left some trace of itself, this really should work since the setup won't look for or find the old installation. Once you have Oblivion and the DLCs installed, you can dump your Data folder from the old install into the new one and it will put all the mods in place, just like before. In other words, Oblivion and the DLCs are entered into the registry, but nothing else is so that all that matters is that the file is where Ob + obse expects to find it, not how it got there.

 

If even this doesn't work, I'd suspect that your Oblivion CD has been scratched. If some of the data on the CD is corrupted, then the behavior you are seeing makes perfect sense. Try cleaning it and you could get lucky. 

 

If there is any chance that the CD is scratched, you can probably acquire a new one for very little money. I think they sell for around 5€ here. Any version should be good enough to get past this problem, you can use what you have for the DLCs and all, unless you have a really nasty scratch that messes up a lot on the disc.

 

Not all scratches are visible. If you aren't sure about it, you could try copying the whole disc onto your hard drive. If it is scratched, that should fail the same as the installation, whereas if the problem is a software one relating to the installer and incompatibility with W10, simply copying should work fine. It doesn't serve any other purpose and if it succeeds, you'll want to delete the copy again, but it would give you an idea of whether the problem is software or hardware.

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I am pretty sure the problem is not Oblivion. The problem is setup.exe, which is part of InstallShield. It crashed when I tried to uninstall Oblivion and, now that I uninstalled using another tool, it crashes exactly the same way when I try to install. Three seconds after started, windows pops up a message saying "setup.exe stopped working..". I don't get to the point where I choose where to install. Problem is not the DVD either, as i have two (an old one and a GOTY), and the same thing happens in both. 

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