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      Orphan Attachments   07/31/2018

      I have been doing some housekeeping lately and I've noticed that I had a lot of orphaned attachments. Attachments get orphaned when the PM or post is deleted without removing the attachment first. Deleting a PM or post does not delete the attachment and the file or image remain on the server. I'd like to ask all members to go through their attachments and delete any attachments you don't need anymore or those that have been orphaned. Where can I get a list of my attachments? Click on your display name in the upper right corner of the forums and pick "My Attachments" from the drop-down list. How can I tell an attachment is orphaned? If the PM has been deleted, you'll see a message like this in your attachment list: Unfortunately there is no message if the post has been deleted, so please check your old posts. We do purge old birthday threads every once in a while. Also some hosted projects have been shut down, so you may have orphaned attachments on one of those locations. Thanks!
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Munch Universe

Craftybits 0.812 Bug Reports

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Thanks for taking the time to explain. I get it now. I've seen those wheels before but I didn't even know how to read them until you explained. 

Chances are the settings which were already there were inherited from some older item where the settings might have made sense. 

As you can see in the pic, the cloth does stand out just a little. While silk is usually woven so tightly that it tends to have a sheen, lower quality cloth will tend to swallow light a little. But they are much improved over what they were and any further improvement is uncertain. Much appreciated. I'll add a note to the Ref Guide acknowledging your effort.

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On 10/25/2018 at 11:42 AM, HoundAkragth said:

Pemmican's like clay before the tallow cools completely, so any shape you care to make them is fine. I was personally thinking "protein bar". And now I seriously should probably get to work instead of messaging on my cellphone before my boss starts yelling.

@HoundAkragth Lighter? Darker? Completely the wrong sort of texture?

5bd4c693beb45_pemmicantest.png.e0eb3dd971d4be3c9965bd4d83f60df2.png

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Is that model composed of separate objects which do not need to stay together, like the bone pile? While the effect is kind of neat and appropriate for the bone pile, I'm a little concerned it may not work so well for a food item. If you have a stack of pemmican, it will look the same. If there is only one representing the stack, somehow the player gets it. If there is a stack of 8 but no stack of 16, it seems a bit weirder. Another consideration is that sometimes such an object will roll downhill, spreading it over a considerable patch of terrain. If you pick up any one of the objects, it picks up all of them so it works in practice but it still seems a bit strange.

I do like the idea of multiple pemmican "bars" but perhaps it would be better to structure them into a pile which is bound together. Maybe a stack of 6 of them, or something, seemingly wrapped up with a piece of twine. Please consider this merely a suggestion for your consideration. I'll take it as is, if that is your preference, since I don't think a distendable stack will cause any serious problems, just minor little immersion ones.

I'll leave it to HoundAkragth to provide feedback on the color. I like them as they are, but improvement is also possible.

In any case, that is a nice piece of work, creative and focused on the real needs of this little project. Usually making something low quality and mundane isn't much fun for modelers because it is only the complicated, shiny stuff that allows you to show what you can do. In addition, making something beautiful is often no more work than something kind of ugly, so why wouldn't you make it beautiful? But that often runs counter to the needs of CB, which is full of mundane, often almost ugly objects. It seems to be one of those things where either you get it, or you don't. Previous attempts to explain the situation to novice modelers have seldom worked out.

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The "pemmican bars" are actually a re-texture of the Crab Meat Ingredient that I scaled up, so they're all bound together. It wouldn't be hard to load it into blender and align them into neater stacks, though.

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Before you put the effort into it, let's see what HoundAkragth says about the color and run some in-game testing. I think the crab meat is a fixed, as opposed to the bone pile, in which case there will not be an issue. A little chaos can be a good thing. At least it will make them easy to recognize, since they don't closely resemble anything else.

I'll give it a go tomorrow. I'm a bit busy today with another project. 

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22 hours ago, puddles said:

@HoundAkragth Lighter? Darker? Completely the wrong sort of texture?

Sorry, been really busy. Technically, doing this on my lunch hour. Er, would an image of pemmican help? The attached should be it.

T'be honest, pemmican's highly dependent on what it's made from; more tallow, and it's whiter. The redder the original meat, the generally darker the resulting jerky and pemmican. The finer ground the jerky, the less mottled it looks. It could, as shown below, be solid brown. Everything except the obviously plants things is pemmican.

I personally think it looks fine, but I've never been picky with textures.

pemmican.jpg

Edited by HoundAkragth

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@Munch Universe Okay, I did finally get the Bosmer Furnace done. Sorry for dragging my heels, but here's a screenshot of why I was insistent on the ambient occlusion baking:

large.5bd7fc42be054_bosmeroven.jpg.fbddf

The baking also has the plus of combining all of the different textures into a single texture. Saves a lot of space. I'll package it up to upload tomorrow with the pemmican. For now, I sleeeep...

Edited by puddles

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That looks great! :)

Now that I have a clear idea of what the Bosmer oven would look like, I started to think about the implementation. Apologies if it seems like I'm trying too hard, but one of the things about CB has been that we have indulged a bit of a perfectionist streak to ensure the quality.

When using a (wood) campfire, the player chops firewood, places a pile on the ground and converts it into a campfire. The campfire is then a heat source for surrounding plates, pots and vats. 

With the Bosmer oven the first thing I'd try is to open it with the intent of placing something inside it. Actually making that possible would mean an animation project of a considerable scope, so I'm not suggesting you try it. But the open access hole does beg for seeing something happening inside. The interior modeling is nicely done and would allow some nice glow effects which are not too hard to set up, so there is something to be said for leaving it open, even if the player can't add vessels to it. 

I could probably rig the oven up to be a container to which the player can open to add things to cook. But I don't think the game system allows a container in a container and plates need to be handled directly by manipulating whatever is on them. This is what has prevented me from implementing ovens in the past, even though Stroti has made a halfway decent one. 

I think what would work would be a sealed oven that the player cannot see into. It can be a container (as is the campfire), which the player opens  in order to add tallow and light. For the forge, you either need to be holding a lit torch when fueling up or you can throw a fireball at the door. The same mechanism could work here. Once lit, the Bosmer over will smoke like the campfire and warn the player when the fuel is running low. It will behave as a heat source, like the campfire, so that nothing needs to change for the rest of the cooking. The player simply places plates, pots and vats in the proximity of the oven and cooking begins.

The oven could be used as is, as long as we don't worry about creating an expectation which is not fulfilled. How do the two of you see it? Would you expect to see sizzling plates and steaming pots inside the oven or is it okay as is? Would it be a lot of work to close the hole in the oven door? If it is fairly easily done, I think it may be worth it.

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Closing it up would be easy enough. I just tested the model in the CS, and unless the oven is increased in scale by 4 it's impossible to fit the plate inside the oven...although I specially made the collision to allow a plate/food to fit inside. The plate doesn't bounce around, etc.

Edit Tested it in-game and it's too cumbersome. I'll make a closed-up model and enlarge this current one for my Valenwood Regrown mod.

Edited by puddles

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@Munch Universe After a number of delays, here we are...I've included the Bosmer Oven, Pemmican, and some ancient resources from a JPN modding site that went offline years ago: a burger (I don't really know if those are lore-compliant...?), a Pudding/Flan with a cherry, and a plain cherry I made by removing everything else from the dessert and adding new collision. Ironically, cherries don't even exist in COBL...? Feel free to use the latter three or don't, I just figured someone might get some use out of the stuff.

I had to upload it to the Oblivion Resources section, since the CraftyBits Public section can't be uploaded to.

 

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Many thanks puddles. I'll get right on adding the resources to CB. AndalayBay, that was very attentive of you, thank you. I should have already submitted the request.

I'll have a look at the burger and cherry models. The burger might be able to slip into a sandwich slot, which would make it easy to incorporate. The cherries are harder, since there are no cherry trees in Oblivion. To really fit into CB, we'd want to have trees as well, but that becomes a major project. Just adding the models as a modders resource would be easy enough but to really do it right, the trees would need to be placed around Tamriel. Do you happen to know if mhahn uses cherry trees in any of his mods? I find his work very good and highly compatible with CB, so if he has cherry trees, it might be worth it to add them to CB for those using his villages.

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Hi puddles,
I got distracted for a couple of days, but have now turned my attention to getting this little project finished off. 

The extra assets are nice but I think they are too hard to really integrate well. The pudding requires the cherries, and the cherries a cherry tree. We could postulate that cherries are imported from elsewhere, but then it starts being a case of including things for the sake of including them, rather than because they are needed for something. The burger is similar, cute, but just not reason enough to bother. I do appreciate being giving the choice.

I was under the impression that the Bosmer oven would be closed, in the sense of the player not being able to see into it. I'm not sure if we misunderstood one another or if you might have accidentally added the wrong oven to the file. The one in the file is the one I see above which has an opening in the door which the player can see into. If that is what you want, we'll go with it, I just want to make sure that something didn't go wrong in the communication or transfer. I can use the model you sent to install it into CB, then we can swap the nif later, so it isn't time critical.

This should be fun. The Bosmer oven will require a little special scripting, but not too much. Maybe later today.

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When a campfire is burning, if you simply take firewood out of inventory and drop it near the fire, the firewood is added to the fire. For burning tallow in the oven, I see two possible approaches. In one, the mechanism is preserved so that you can drop tallow out of your inventory near the Bosmer oven and it refuels the fire. This would be the easiest way to go about it from the scripting perspective.

The other possibility is adapting the script more to operating an oven. It didn't seem to make sense to open a burning fire to add more wood to it, so CLShade developed the idea of dropping wood onto the fire. For an oven, however, opening would seem to be a necessary step to add fuel. Dropping tallow a meter/yard from the oven doesn't seem like an intuitive way to refuel it. This takes a little more modification, but is not particularly difficult. In the end, it is probably a little simpler and more intuitive for the user.

Puddles, what do you think, does one approach or the other appeal to you more? I can develop the first approach first, let you test it and still come back to the second one with no lost effort, if that seems best.

Another question: Any ideas regarding constructing a Bosmer Oven? It could be as simple as adding 4 blobs of clay (recipes with 1-3 already exist). What would be even better is to combine some signature piece with clay. The clay blobs automatically combine up to 3, so using a 3 x blob would be a little easier than having to create a 4 x blob for this one purpose. What comes to mind is the Skyrim "iron fittings" which can be whatever is needed. With CB, we've alway tried to be more literal than that, but perhaps the Skyrim vagueness is better. To abstract even more, perhaps an ingot of brass and 3 x clay might be a viable recipe. Three ingredients are allowed without the script needing to get much more complicated, in case a third ingredient occurs to you.

Edited by Munch Universe

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8 hours ago, Munch Universe said:

Hi puddles,
I got distracted for a couple of days, but have now turned my attention to getting this little project finished off. 

The extra assets are nice but I think they are too hard to really integrate well. The pudding requires the cherries, and the cherries a cherry tree. We could postulate that cherries are imported from elsewhere, but then it starts being a case of including things for the sake of including them, rather than because they are needed for something. The burger is similar, cute, but just not reason enough to bother. I do appreciate being giving the choice.

I was under the impression that the Bosmer oven would be closed, in the sense of the player not being able to see into it. I'm not sure if we misunderstood one another or if you might have accidentally added the wrong oven to the file. The one in the file is the one I see above which has an opening in the door which the player can see into. If that is what you want, we'll go with it, I just want to make sure that something didn't go wrong in the communication or transfer. I can use the model you sent to install it into CB, then we can swap the nif later, so it isn't time critical.

This should be fun. The Bosmer oven will require a little special scripting, but not too much. Maybe later today.

The cherry could actually be removed from the pudding pretty easily, but yeah the lack of native cherries is an issue. As for the oven...I think the latest model I packed up has a metal pane covering the hole, now?

7 hours ago, Munch Universe said:

When a campfire is burning, if you simply take firewood out of inventory and drop it near the fire, the firewood is added to the fire. For burning tallow in the oven, I see two possible approaches. In one, the mechanism is preserved so that you can drop tallow out of your inventory near the Bosmer oven and it refuels the fire. This would be the easiest way to go about it from the scripting perspective.

The other possibility is adapting the script more to operating an oven. It didn't seem to make sense to open a burning fire to add more wood to it, so CLShade developed the idea of dropping wood onto the fire. For an oven, however, opening would seem to be a necessary step to add fuel. Dropping tallow a meter/yard from the oven doesn't seem like an intuitive way to refuel it. This takes a little more modification, but is not particularly difficult. In the end, it is probably a little simpler and more intuitive for the user.

Puddles, what do you think, does one approach or the other appeal to you more? I can develop the first approach first, let you test it and still come back to the second one with no lost effort, if that seems best.

Another question: Any ideas regarding constructing a Bosmer Oven? It could be as simple as adding 4 blobs of clay (recipes with 1-3 already exist). What would be even better is to combine some signature piece with clay. The clay blobs automatically combine up to 3, so using a 3 x blob would be a little easier than having to create a 4 x blob for this one purpose. What comes to mind is the Skyrim "iron fittings" which can be whatever is needed. With CB, we've alway tried to be more literal than that, but perhaps the Skyrim vagueness is better. To abstract even more, perhaps an ingot of brass and 3 x clay might be a viable recipe. Three ingredients are allowed without the script needing to get much more complicated, in case a third ingredient occurs to you.

Well, based on the texture materials...the lid on top is a piece of bronze, the hinges and handle-thing are bronze. The frame and the grating inside are brass. The cover on the front is glass or something.

CBBosmerOven.nif

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OK, looks like you sent the right one but I'm still a bit confused. In Nifskope the metal plate appears to be transparent, since I can still see the grill inside. I haven't looked at the Bosmer oven in-game yet, so perhaps the transparency is a Nifskope artifact of some sort? If it is also transparent in-game, then probably all that is required is to tweak the texture. Being able to see into the oven does improve the appeal of the model but I remain concerned that it generates expectations we cannot fulfill.

I think I'll go with the recipe suggested above, a brass ingot and 3 clay. That might be a little bit simpler than it should be from the looks of the oven, but a source of heat is a very basic requirement, so we don't want to make it too hard. 

 

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The model's hatch window is translucent in-game, but only enough for movement of the steam and fire effect from the Fire Salts to be vaguely discernable through it. It's dark enough inside that no one could identify whether or not there's food. It's easy to just delete the AlphaProperty node in NifSkope to get rid of that, though. I could make it so it could be opened, I think...probably. I've never worked with making hinge animations. Certainly not during the busy season with my job, unfortunately...and even then, Oblivion's collision is too wonky to put food on the grate inside without weird bouncing.

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OK, I'll use it as is and we'll worry about any potential problems later when they have be observed in-game. No need to contemplate opening the door. The door of the forge doesn't open as an animation either. I don't think that bothers players much, since even when something "opens" it is mostly symbolic.

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I shortly I will upload the add-on into the Craftybits Team Folder of my DropBox account. Puddles and HoundAkgarth already have access, if anyone else is interested, please let me know. If someone can find a little time to do some testing, that would be a great help.

Things to know:
To create pemmican mix add any type of raw meat and tallow to the mixing bowl, drop in the spoon and get Pemmican mix.
To dry your pemmican mix, add to the Aging Barrel and wait a couple of days. This takes a lot of patience but no source of heat.

To create a Bosmer oven, add Bronze nuggets and Clay(3) to the Pottery board and drop a knife on the board. In the process I made the ring and jewelry order-of-addition-independent, which should increase their reliability. In the previous version you needed to add the wax model before the clay or it would give you a plate instead of the form.

To use the Bosmer oven, open and fill with tallow. Light and use as if it was a campfire.

All the changes but the last one follow known paths and stand a good chance of working as intended. The last one was a modification of an existing script which may turn out to be buggy or weird. 

EDIT: I'm going to upload the latest full CB pack to the same location. If someone can download and install it, just to check if it will start up properly (nothing missing), it becomes the release candidate.

 

Edited by Munch Universe

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