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1Mac

"Elsweyr Mods Cleaned and Merged"

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fienyx is an interesting fellow I know from my Monster Race Blockhead Edition mod over on, ahem...LoversLab, I doubt he would've bothered to ask for approval from her anyway. I'm almost surprised he uploaded the stuff to Nexus, but not really. He's probably using the rationale that since he's linking to all the original mods and only providing the .esp it's "okay". Nexus will probably take care of it before long.

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I’ve got a bunch of Elsweyr stuff, a UOP patch to stop the flickering Aylied ruins in Alabaster, an updated City Extension, and some other bug fixes (mostly floating rocks and trees that are fixed), plus a good portion of a Falinesti tree city done, but it’s all just for me since Iliana has not responded to my message in over a year. 

 

Edit:  I never cared for “Tales” though. Didn’t seem to fit with the original vision well and my game always crashed around the wizards tower, so I don’t use Tales anymore. 

Edited by Turija
Added an afterthought.

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On 2018-01-29 at 7:37 PM, 1Mac said:

Interesting. The inclusion of the Unofficial Patch seems like it could be controversial, since Iliana said it's not necessary for the 2014 version of EDoA.

That's why I reported the mod on Nexus due for providing false information.  Illiana even stated that in here in the "6. Incompabilities" section.

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On 1/30/2018 at 10:28 AM, puddles said:

He's probably using the rationale that since he's linking to all the original mods and only providing the .esp it's "okay". Nexus will probably take care of it before long.

I guess I'd be interested to hear the ethical case for why it's not okay. I'm new to this whole scene, so there's probably some problem I haven't considered fully.

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Eh...I mean, I personally wouldn't care if someone merged my work into a compilation mod, but some people might. For example, I'm sitting on a compilation of several Dwemer mods where I consolidated all the duplicate items using TES4Edit and balanced the prices, etc...but I releasing it is an issue because the authors aren't online often anymore to respond and Nexus requires explicit permission to upload someone else's content (even if they don't always enforce it).

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10 minutes ago, puddles said:

Eh...I mean, I personally wouldn't care if someone merged my work into a compilation mod, but some people might. For example, I'm sitting on a compilation of several Dwemer mods where I consolidated all the duplicate items using TES4Edit and balanced the prices, etc...but I releasing it is an issue because the authors aren't online often anymore to respond and Nexus requires explicit permission to upload someone else's content (even if they don't always enforce it).

Personally, I agree with you. I think the modding community would be better off if we had "Cathedral" modding instead of "Parlor" modding as Wrye argued for many years ago, and I have often cited Burningman as an example where artists from across the globe come together to build a "cathedral" of sorts for a week in the desert,  but anytime I argue TES modding should be like that, I get shouted down by a cacophony of Fus Ro Dahs.  So I have given up and mostly create mods just for myself since most of my work depends on the work of others to a degree and many of those others are no longer around to grant permission.  

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Well, Nexus is in a particular situation because they use advertisement and subscription, so if they don't at least publicly maintain the "no permission no upload" stance, I guess someone could in theory try to sue them for profiting off their work, or...something? I'unno. Other websites like LoversLab, TESALL (a Russian site that doesn't seem to understand/care about "western" copyright), and a few other obscure or foreign sites generally just look the other way. It is unfortunate that if someone's been gone from the modding scene for years and never left explicit instructions their work "couldn't" be used that their work doesn't just drift into public domain or whatever. I can understand (even if I don't agree with) people saying "No, never", and I totally understand people not wanting their project having a spin-off while it's still in development, because that's just asinine. The person wanting to make the spin-off could ask to contribute, or...just wait because the mod will probably be updated again. I freely admit to skirting permissions when it comes to old Not!Resources where the long-absent author never left permissions stating one way or the other. Hopefully it doesn't come back to bite me, but if it does, well so be it. I'll still be happy as long as people get to enjoy what I cobble together.

But, back on the topic of this thread...honestly, probably better to just leave him to it on Nexus, because if it's taken off there he'll more than likely just take it somewhere more obscure where arising issues couldn't be monitored. Cynical, I know, but...

Edited by puddles

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Iliana is one of those mod authors who doesn’t want her work used without permission. I honestly don’t know why. She has taken a lot of flack over the years from people not liking her creative decisions with respect to her work, so that might be part of the reason. Nexus in particular wound up being too toxic for her, so she removed all her mods from Nexus and uploaded them here. I believe we are the only authorized host of her mods. If she’s had any problems here, I have intervened. Given that is our agreement, I can’t permit derivative works to be uploaded here without Iliana’s explicit permission.

In general I think people make too much of protecting copyright. Most mod authors create a mod and forget about it once they leave the community. The people who care are usually those who are using their mods to make money or to add to their portfolio to get a job in the gaming industry. No, they don’t charge money for their mods, but they do sign up to sites like Pateon and list their mods in their creative content. In those cases, it’s understandable that they need to protect their creations and be very clear about which mods are theirs.

When asked, I advise people to ask for permission. If they can’t obtain it because the author has left the community, then I’m not going to fuss over it, unless I know their wishes, like Iliana.

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That's too bad about what happened to Iliana on Nexus.  That was a bit before my time, but I have read about it.  The ironic thing is that I would not want to change anything about her creative vision -- her creative vision is awesome, and that's one reason I don't use Tales, since it departs too much from her creative vision for my tastes.   The only things I have done are fix bugs and conflicts and fill in areas left undone, but I won't go against her wishes and release it until she comes back and says its okay. 

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In the past when people have done that, she’s gone back to work and released a new version of her mod, with things fixed and more areas finished. :lmao: I think she’s pretty stubborn too!

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Well other than unused parts of Corinthe, most of the unused areas I am filling in are on the Valenwood side of the border where she may not want to expand anyway, but I would not mind if she wanted to reclaim the real estate at some point since I am sure she would do a better job than I could of filling in unused areas. But at least it would give people something to do in those areas while waiting. It was four years from the 2010 version before she came back and added Rimmon and in another couple months it will have been another four years since the 2014 version.  Maybe that means she is due to resurface soon. 

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Not really wanting to get into a big debate over this, but the modding community has never been this bastion of cathedral modding supporters that people want to say it was. That's part of why Wrye tried to argue to get things changed. When he realized it wasn't in the cards he at least backed away and let it alone.

What gets me isn't so much that some people want things to go toward cathedral modding, it's that they do so in an overly aggressive and entitled manner as though they're owed mods being distributed that way. It's a matter of individual choice and all I personally ever ask for is that my choice to remain in the "parlor" camp be respected as is my right. It's when people try to take that away that us parlor modders are forced to engage the issue.

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I have no problem with your stance. You’re still active in the community. Your license terms provide a provision should you choose the leave the community. And yeah, I get the self-entitlement bullshit too.

I combat all this by continuing to update my mods. When I get asked if someone can upload somewhere, I say maybe after I’ve done the next update. They usually don’t bother contacting me again. ;)

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7 hours ago, 1Mac said:

For what it's worth, he claims to have checked for incompatibilities and removed from the patch any changes that were included in EDoA 2014.

I can't check that now since the mod is hidden, the thread as well, and probably under moderation.

7 hours ago, 1Mac said:

I guess I'd be interested to hear the ethical case for why it's not okay. I'm new to this whole scene, so there's probably some problem I haven't considered fully.

I can tell you why.

Because the uploader must obtain permission from the original author before doing anything with a mod, which includes removing stuff in this case the patch that Illiana included in the latest version of EDoA 2014.

Permission is also needed to merge another mod into the actual mod in question and I really doubt that guy had obtained permission from Illina.  All that violates author's permission.

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4 hours ago, AndalayBay said:

I believe we are the only authorized host of her mods.

TAL is the only community site that Iliana have no problem with.

4 hours ago, AndalayBay said:

If she’s had any problems here, I have intervened.

I remember one occasion a couple of years ago when someone from Nexus came here and started to demand things.

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5 hours ago, Arthmoor said:

Not really wanting to get into a big debate over this, 

Yeah I don’t want to debate either. Other than Requiem tweaks, I only mod for my own use nowadays anyway. After Bethesda’s old forum went dark and everyone went their separate ways, I lost interest in debating and with the economy humming along now, I‘ve no time for debate anymore anyway.  Since then, with what little free time I have, I’ve mostly moved on to other hobbies anyway (like gunsmithing, if you want to debate the merits of striker-fired vs DA/SA, send me a link to an appropriate thread and I’ll throw down).  I only commented in this thread because I do have a bunch of Elsweyr stuff that I might release if Iliana ever returned.  Kind of ironic though that the most vocal proponent of the “parlor modders” crowd that drove Wrye away is also the most vocal proponent of the mod manager he left behind. Guess we have that in common. We both love Wrye Bash. Peace. 

Edited by Turija
Typos

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Back when Iliana was still active, she was fine with me making a spin-off mod based on her work.  And of course, my mod is completely separate and requires you to download Anequina to even use the mod. Though the stipulations are that I cannot change her quests in any shape or form, without her approvals.

I do hope Iliana will come back soon, if only so we can work together on adding choice and consequence to her existing quests.

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I’d be totally agreeable to her stipulation regarding quests.  One of my mods is similar in that it is totally separate and only uses hers and Onra’s as a master.  

Another one fills in a bunch of empty spaces in Corinthe. In reading Fienix’s comments on Nexus it appears his (now deleted) mod took a different approach to resolving conflicts with Elsweyr 2014 and Pieto’s City Extension. Fienix deleted the Elsweyr 2014 changes that caused the conflict. 

I like Iliana’s work too much to just delete it for the sake of conflict resolution so my approach was a bit different. I unlocked the door to the new section of Corinthe she added and flushed out all three sections by adding new doors and decorations in the exterior spaces and linking them to Pieto’s interiors, finishing the empty interiors the same way, moving the AI markers, relocating Pieto’s sewer entrances, and finally adding clutter to all the spaces Pieto left undone. So my version of City Extension has all of  Iliana’s work but with empty spaces filled in using Pieto’s interiors and NPCs, plus some of my own interior and exterior decorations. It’s not intended as a permanent fix to Corinthe, only a temporary patch to make the whole city playable until Iliana comes back and finishes it herself. 

I do hope she comes back soon as Elsweyr is probably my favorite mod from any game, or at least in the top three. I’d like to see her complete it. 

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7 hours ago, Envy123 said:

Back when Iliana was still active, she was fine with me making a spin-off mod based on her work.  And of course, my mod is completely separate and requires you to download Anequina to even use the mod. Though the stipulations are that I cannot change her quests in any shape or form, without her approvals.

I do hope Iliana will come back soon, if only so we can work together on adding choice and consequence to her existing quests.

That's exactly how a modding community should be, but over the years we have seen a lot of changes e.g sites come and go, a modder retires (TheNiceOne is one of those modders).

But the mutual spirit in modding among modders are still there, at least it was back in 2011/12, before MegaUpload went down due to the site closure by the FBI and IGN's decision to permanently shut down FilePlanet, which in turn also affected PES.

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1 hour ago, Turija said:

I’d be totally agreeable to her stipulation regarding quests.  One of my mods is similar in that it is totally separate and only uses hers and Onra’s as a master.  

Me too. I anyway ensure that I stick to the original vision, while adding choices, as seen in Valenwood Islands and City of Balmora.

I think that Pelletine both complements and contrasts with Iliana's work (would make sense lore-wise, as different places in the same country should have their own identity).

2 minutes ago, Leonardo said:

That's exactly how a modding community should be, but over the years we have seen a lot of changes e.g sites come and go, a modder retires (TheNiceOne is one of those modders).

But the mutual spirit in modding among modders are still there, at least it was back in 2011/12, before MegaUpload went down due to the site closure by the FBI and IGN's decision to permanently shut down FilePlanet, which in turn also affected PES.

Well, City of Balmora has a unique feature-set, because that combines my choice-and-consequence narrative design with Praedator's great level design. I'd be open to such a collaboration again, definitely.

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On 1/31/2018 at 9:59 PM, Turija said:

Yeah I don’t want to debate either. Other than Requiem tweaks, I only mod for my own use nowadays anyway. After Bethesda’s old forum went dark and everyone went their separate ways, I lost interest in debating and with the economy humming along now, I‘ve no time for debate anymore anyway.  Since then, with what little free time I have, I’ve mostly moved on to other hobbies anyway (like gunsmithing, if you want to debate the merits of striker-fired vs DA/SA, send me a link to an appropriate thread and I’ll throw down).  I only commented in this thread because I do have a bunch of Elsweyr stuff that I might release if Iliana ever returned.  Kind of ironic though that the most vocal proponent of the “parlor modders” crowd that drove Wrye away is also the most vocal proponent of the mod manager he left behind. Guess we have that in common. We both love Wrye Bash. Peace. 

Eh, I wouldn't say that parlor modders drove him away. It seemed like he just wanted out by the time he made that decision. The push he was going for was well underway when I joined the scene and after he realized the community wasn't willing to go that route he respectfully left it alone. That's why I refer to how he handled this issue whenever it comes up. He knew when to stop pushing because doing so just alienates people. I was a nobody in 2008. He had no reason to care what I thought, but he still did.

I don't know anything about firearms so I'll leave the gunsmithing to you :P

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