Jump to content
  • Announcements

    • AndalayBay

      Orphan Attachments   07/31/2018

      I have been doing some housekeeping lately and I've noticed that I had a lot of orphaned attachments. Attachments get orphaned when the PM or post is deleted without removing the attachment first. Deleting a PM or post does not delete the attachment and the file or image remain on the server. I'd like to ask all members to go through their attachments and delete any attachments you don't need anymore or those that have been orphaned. Where can I get a list of my attachments? Click on your display name in the upper right corner of the forums and pick "My Attachments" from the drop-down list. How can I tell an attachment is orphaned? If the PM has been deleted, you'll see a message like this in your attachment list: Unfortunately there is no message if the post has been deleted, so please check your old posts. We do purge old birthday threads every once in a while. Also some hosted projects have been shut down, so you may have orphaned attachments on one of those locations. Thanks!
Sign in to follow this  
Vincent

Jeremy Soule Rape Accusations

Recommended Posts

So this is a huge thing going around right now. If you haven't heard, Jeremy Soule, composer for Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim has been accused of rape. You can read the detailed report here.

A summary can be found here since the original is very long and goes into lots of other things outside of the accusations.

Additionally, here is a post from another one of his supposed victims.

I have to say, this came to me as a complete shock. I'm really upset by this news, not only as a fan of Jeremy's work, but also as an empathic person learning that one of my heroes did such unspeakable things and for what these women had to go through. The whole thing is unreal and really shocked me.

This really puts a spotlight on how bad things can be in the gaming industry, and how toxic masculinity is often the norm, going completely unchecked and tolerated. Things need to change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That assumes even half of this is true.

I didn't go through everything but it strikes me that this person is saying how awesome she is and how after she started working with two groups of people they started to hate on her and undermine her. She blames Jeremy Soule for this, apparently. At least 50% of the story, mostly his imagined influence, I don't buy. It certainly sounds like Jeremy Soule might be a jerk and also that he's made advances to women which were not welcome. It's possible he raped this person but reading even part of the story I think it's also possible that they had a consensual relationship and he was a massive jerk.

There's something that doesn't ring true about the description of Jeremy Soule's process, or rather the author's disdain for it. Assuming he said the things alleged then he's hardly alone in seeing composing and performing as a sexual experience, nor is he alone in musing over women. However, the way this is described here makes it sound inherently abhorrent that he might see composing as sexual or muse over women.

If what he's musing over is abusing women then that's obviously terrible and potentially taints all his work. however, listening to Call of Magic (the Morrowind theme) I find that difficult to credit, especially the reprise. Certainly, you could hear something sexual in the music if you chose to interpret it this way but it's difficult to detect anything violent, the movement builds to a crescendo, but a very warm one, if it's meant to evoke a sexual act it's not a selfish or self-involved one.

 On the other hand, it seems that the person writing this blog post has a very poor work ethic (sleeping at your desk and skipping meals is not working hard, it's performative piety). I also detect a difficulty communicating with others. The emails sent are totally inappropriate and wildly off-point - especially the accusation of hacking.

This is her other article she references: https://gamejolt.com/@alienmelon/post/so-how-is-it-like-being-a-woman-in-tech-c6uzvwbd

Quote

 

“So, how’s it like being a woman in tech?”
(“tech” can be substituted for anything else)

There was a period where this was a popular question, and if you were a woman, you’d probably be asked this. This question has always puzzled me because it seems like the kind of thing where the person asking, isn’t really interested in the answer.

Sort of like when you’re asked “how was your day?”, and the proper reply would be “fine, thanks”, or anything else superficially short. Not a lengthy response with how your day actually was.

When asked “How it’s like being a woman in tech?”, I had been tempted to answer with sassy things like “what? do you want me to cry on your shoulder?”, but I don’t because I am a very polite person.

 

She goes on later to describe how someone who just met her (a man) interpreted her as having an attitude problem.

This Kotaku Article paint a more complex picture: https://kotaku.com/two-women-accuse-skyrim-composer-jeremy-soule-of-sexual-1837677315

They note that the second person to accuse Soule exchanged text messages with him that appeared "flirty" and that she reciprocated his attraction - at least initially.

My read on this is that Jeremy Soule is probably a bit sleazy and has boundary issues. Such faults are hardly uncommon, and can manifest in men who fail to recognise they have aged and no longer look 20 on the outside (what seems bold at 20 seems very sleazy at 40). One of the problems here is that once a story like this becomes public it's very easy for other people to interpret their past interactions with the alleged perpetrator in a new light.

On the other hand, it's possible he's the Harvey Weinstein of the Video Game World - in which case this story will start to pick up momentum over the next couple of weeks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I meant to reply to this earlier. I agree with Sigurd in this case. *shocker* LOL

I remember reading an article in the newspaper that accused a swim coach of sexual assault and interference. I was a member of his swim club as a teenager. I had an extremely high heart rate and after a hard work-out, I could hardly breathe. He took my pulse from my wrist and he couldn’t even count my heart rate. He was so concerned that he drove me home. He never made a move on me. I read the article several years later. It seemed a girl was trying to accuse him of inappropriate behaviour several years after the fact or he was still coaching 20 years after I knew him. It wasn’t clear from the article. They were looking for more girls to come forward. I have no idea how the case developed - if charges were ever made. I suspect the case was dropped as I never heard anything about it on TV and the swim club was pretty big.

My point is to wait for this to go through the legal system before passing judgement. It only seems to be a couple of women, so they might be simply upset that their personal relationship with Jeremy didn’t result in the advancement in their careers that they were looking for. As Sigurd said, at this point we should wait and see if more women come forward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's important to say that there are a lot of ways this could go, all the way from "Jeremy likes the girls too much" to "He's a serial rapist."

 

Personally, I find the second person's accusations much more credible than the first person's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was raised with the rule that you never go to a guy's home or room alone unless you want to have sex. You don't put yourself in situations where things could go where you don't want them to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was raised with the rule that you don't go around accusing people of crimes if you have no evidence of a crime. The fact that no official charges have been filed would seem to suggest there's no evidence for any of this and it's just vindictive individuals trying to ruin his life for some reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Abuse is tricky. I've been suffering low-level domestic abuse (from a roommate) for months and I haven't gone to the cops because short of him battering me it's just my word against his with a few anecdotes from other people.

 

Of course, it doesn't help that I'm a man and there's no sexual element - it's just threats of violence - so it's difficult to get anyone to take it seriously.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly my point though. It's just her word against his, and I'm not just gonna blindly believe her because she's a woman. That's not how proper justice works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These events also occurred a long time ago. I know the “me too” thing has encouraged a lot of women to speak up, but these women aren’t going to the police, they’re just ranting on their blogs. We don’t even know their true identities other than what they claim they are. Not that we should, but the anonymity of the net feeds trolls. If something really happened, I can only hope these women stop complaining on the net and go to the police. Jeremy also deserves the chance to defend himself.

@Sigurd Stormhand, it’s time to remove yourself from that situation. Are there other support groups that you could contact?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, AndalayBay said:

These events also occurred a long time ago. I know the “me too” thing has encouraged a lot of women to speak up, but these women aren’t going to the police, they’re just ranting on their blogs. We don’t even know their true identities other than what they claim they are. Not that we should, but the anonymity of the net feeds trolls. If something really happened, I can only hope these women stop complaining on the net and go to the police. Jeremy also deserves the chance to defend himself.

@Sigurd Stormhand, it’s time to remove yourself from that situation. Are there other support groups that you could contact?

@AndalayBayI'm not leaving my home because some arsehole threatened me. Especially not one who should be gone in a month or so. Much as we'd all just like him to leave it is rather difficult to force someone out of rented accommodation.

 

It's worth pointing out that we DO know exactly who all these women are - one is a well known Indie games dev whilst the other is a singer. Whilst the dev made a big show of not "naming names" Kotaku helpfully provided all the context.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If these people are only whining on their blogs about it, absolutely nobody should lend it any credibility at all. Back your shit up with proper evidence. File charges. Let the cops and/or the DA deal with it properly. Otherwise all I see is two angry girls trying to ruin this guy's life for no reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Sigurd Stormhand said:

@AndalayBayI'm not leaving my home because some arsehole threatened me. Especially not one who should be gone in a month or so. Much as we'd all just like him to leave it is rather difficult to force someone out of rented accommodation.

 

It's worth pointing out that we DO know exactly who all these women are - one is a well known Indie games dev whilst the other is a singer. Whilst the dev made a big show of not "naming names" Kotaku helpfully provided all the context.

I was concerned that you were living alone with this guy. Just be careful. I’ve been watching Vengeance: Killer Neighbours and I’ve seen way too much of the stupidity that occurs when neighbours don’t get along. Mind you, that’s in the US where everybody has a gun. I’ve been assaulted by one of my neighbours three times. Police were called and talked to him. He’s an old crazy guy so we didn’t press charges. He’s too old to be a problem now, if he’s even still alive. His wife died several years ago and she was actually the source of a lot of the trouble.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, AndalayBay said:

I was concerned that you were living alone with this guy. Just be careful. I’ve been watching Vengeance: Killer Neighbours and I’ve seen way too much of the stupidity that occurs when neighbours don’t get along. Mind you, that’s in the US where everybody has a gun. I’ve been assaulted by one of my neighbours three times. Police were called and talked to him. He’s an old crazy guy so we didn’t press charges. He’s too old to be a problem now, if he’s even still alive. His wife died several years ago and she was actually the source of a lot of the trouble.

Nah, there's a bunch of us here.

If he were to get a "no fault" eviction he would still have two months to clear out, so that's no ideal. Issuing him with an eviction for being an antisocial thug would theoretically get him out in 24 hours, but he can refuse and we could then be stuck him with him for months.

So, yeah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe someone when they say they've been raped or abused in any way. I sit and I listen. I don't cast judgement on the accuser.

Jeremy does have every right to defend himself, I don't disagree with that. But as of yet, all he's done is nuke his entire social media presence, so that doesn't exactly scream innocence to me.

Like I initially stated, I really admire the guy as a creator and obviously don't want this to be true. However, what I'm not going to do is blindly take his side just because there's no "proof" of anything happening.

How exctly does one prove they've been raped anyway? How does one defend themselves from false accusations for that matter? This is a really complicated subject, and one I don't can be easily solved. This is why I believe the accuser in most instances, and I really don't agree with the negative vitriol people get online simply for coming out with their stories of abuse. Go through the replies and see the kind of tweets she's getting in response, you'll see what I mean. The same can be said for other cases.

I'll mention another one going on right now... Voice actor Vic Mignogna has been accused of sexual misconduct dating as far back as 2003 or earlier. It's been an open secret for a long time. When this whole #metoo thing came around, those accusations got louder, and Vic lost his job. Then an entire movement to support him started up and its been raging for almost 9 months now, people demanding proof, attacking, harassing, making shit up to defame the accusers and people supporting them. It's a giant clusterfuck, really, but it's a similar situation. Vic ended up suing his former employer for his termination, and the legal battle is still going on. The only form of proof that was given was multiple testimonies from his accusers and depositions. The Vic supporters say that isn't enough to justify firing someone and continue to harass the other side to this day.

Point being, what else can you do? What kind of proof would you like? Video evidence of someone being raped? Pictures perhaps? Not that easy. So that's why I believe accusers first and foremost. I think the burden of proof is on the one being accused. The right thing to do would be to be the bigger person and own up to your actions, no matter how long ago they were. No matter how much you've changed and put it past you. I guarantee you, your victim certainly has not put it past them as has dealt with the results of your abuse every day of their life since it happened. If you did it, stand by it. If not, fight back and prove your innocence.

Edited by Vincent
I typed this on a phone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Vincent said:

How exctly does one prove they've been raped anyway?

To the satisfaction of a court of law? Eyewitness testimony, DNA, rape kits, other physical evidence, a proper police investigation, and so on.

To the satisfaction of the court of public opinion? With an unsubstantiated accusation on an obscure blog apparently.

 

11 minutes ago, Vincent said:

I think the burden of proof is on the one being accused.

And this right here is exactly backward to how proper justice works. This simply is NOT acceptable in any civilized nation ever.

Unless you've got the secret for how to prove a negative this kind of thinking belongs in a kangaroo court.

Edited by Arthmoor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh boy, I certainly was expecting your replies to this thread to be exactly what they've been. I'm not going to engage your right wing talking points because it's going to turn into nothing but a pissing match and sour grapes. I've said my piece and I stand by it. That is all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem is that there are women, and men for that matter, that will falsely accuse a celebrity in the hopes of getting a financial settlement out of court. This is why the “victims” don’ t go to police. They don’t want justice. They want revenge and money. I’m not talking about this case in particular.

There are several cases of sexual assault plaguing ride share services like Uber and Lyft right now. Drivers are intercepting other driver’s rides, telling the fare that the other driver can’t come, or the fare doesn’t confirm the driver, then the driver takes the fare to a quiet location and assaults them. These victims are going to police and reporting the crime, immediately. The victims are also suing the companies, alleging that proper background checks aren’t being done. The drivers are removed from the program and that protects other people as the police begin their investigation.

I will start believing these women when they start following the legal process.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think we're going to reach an agreement on that particular point. Nathalie, who started this whole thing about Jeremy, stated she didn't go to the authorities because she was in a foreign country and didn't want to jeoerdize her stay and her job. Supposedly Jeremy was friends with the higher ups at the job and, I believe her when she says he has the power to influence decisions in this industry, because I know who who he is and what he's created. It's not out of the realm of possibility that he has used his influence to get what he wants. Should she have gone to the authorities? Should anyone who experiences assault? Absolutely, but I can understand the reasons why someone wouldn't.

Jeremy has proven before that he's not an entirely good faith actor with the whole DirectSong incident, and his kickstarter for The Northerner that he has yet to deliver on all these years later. And no, the Northerner Diaries does not count as a fulfillment of that.

That of course is entirely unrelated to this situation but it lends crecende to me being more likely to believe that he's actually done this.

At the end of the day, right now we don't know his side of the story, because he has yet to provide it.

Edited by Vincent

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m talking about now, provided the statute of limitations hasn’t run out. I do agree the DirectSong and Kickstarter things suggest that Jeremy is far from an upstanding individual.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The court of public opinion is at best a fickle thing. If the author of this post were ever bestowed such a role of libelant (so help me Talos) I would have abnegated all claims on dear Jeremy if he had ever made stuff like this. :P

As it is, all such claims are hurtful and cruel, and it should be in the statutes that such claims should never be publicised until they have been dealt with in court. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Vincent said:

Oh boy, I certainly was expecting your replies to this thread to be exactly what they've been. I'm not going to engage your right wing talking points because it's going to turn into nothing but a pissing match and sour grapes. I've said my piece and I stand by it. That is all.

So following due process of law and the Constitution is just a filthy right wing talking point now? Please do us all a favor and never run for office at any level. I'm not sure what it is they've taught people in school these days but this kind of thinking on your part is dangerous to us all.

We fought an entire revolution against Great Britain over issues like this. We might not even exist as an independent nation today if they hadn't perpetrated exactly the kind of trial you're suggesting Soule be subject to. People lie. All the time. These women should not be assumed to be 100% truthful about any of this because they could very easily be lying about the whole thing. It happens far more than most lefties are willing to admit.

This exact sort of thing is why I do not believe we should even be allowed to discuss someone being accused, arrested, jailed, or in any way deprived of their rights without it having gone to trial and a conviction handed down by the jury.

Edited by Arthmoor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Schtearn said:

As it is, all such claims are hurtful and cruel, and it should be in the statutes that such claims should never be publicised until they have been dealt with in court. 

Hear hear!

39 minutes ago, Arthmoor said:

This exact sort of thing is why I do not believe we should even be allowed to discuss someone being accused, arrested, jailed, or in any way deprived of their rights without it having gone to trial and a conviction handed down by the jury.

Exactly.

If Jeremy's accusers don't talk to the police and seek charges being laid against him, then he will have a perfectly valid counter-suit: libel. In that case, I know exactly what I'm talking about because I've hired a lawyer to send certain individuals a nicely worded letter explaining that we would bring charges of libel if they didn't shut up and stop their accusations. DBC got released six months later. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Vincent said:

I believe someone when they say they've been raped or abused in any way. I sit and I listen. I don't cast judgement on the accuser.

Jeremy does have every right to defend himself, I don't disagree with that. But as of yet, all he's done is nuke his entire social media presence, so that doesn't exactly scream innocence to me.

Like I initially stated, I really admire the guy as a creator and obviously don't want this to be true. However, what I'm not going to do is blindly take his side just because there's no "proof" of anything happening.

How exctly does one prove they've been raped anyway? How does one defend themselves from false accusations for that matter? This is a really complicated subject, and one I don't can be easily solved. This is why I believe the accuser in most instances, and I really don't agree with the negative vitriol people get online simply for coming out with their stories of abuse. Go through the replies and see the kind of tweets she's getting in response, you'll see what I mean. The same can be said for other cases.

I'll mention another one going on right now... Voice actor Vic Mignogna has been accused of sexual misconduct dating as far back as 2003 or earlier. It's been an open secret for a long time. When this whole #metoo thing came around, those accusations got louder, and Vic lost his job. Then an entire movement to support him started up and its been raging for almost 9 months now, people demanding proof, attacking, harassing, making shit up to defame the accusers and people supporting them. It's a giant clusterfuck, really, but it's a similar situation. Vic ended up suing his former employer for his termination, and the legal battle is still going on. The only form of proof that was given was multiple testimonies from his accusers and depositions. The Vic supporters say that isn't enough to justify firing someone and continue to harass the other side to this day.

Point being, what else can you do? What kind of proof would you like? Video evidence of someone being raped? Pictures perhaps? Not that easy. So that's why I believe accusers first and foremost. I think the burden of proof is on the one being accused. The right thing to do would be to be the bigger person and own up to your actions, no matter how long ago they were. No matter how much you've changed and put it past you. I guarantee you, your victim certainly has not put it past them as has dealt with the results of your abuse every day of their life since it happened. If you did it, stand by it. If not, fight back and prove your innocence.

 

I think you're confusing taking someone seriously with automatically believing them. Accusations should be taken seriously and in cases of something like rape taking it seriously involves advising that person to go to the Police. However, if a person spontaneously throws out an accusation 11 years later, having never gone to the Police, and still not going to the Police then taking it seriously also means looking at that person and asking if they're a reliable witness.

Automatically believing accusations it what lands you with situations like the scandal over the alleged abuse ring in Westminster and Karl Beach. Essentially Beach made a variety of accusations against elderly public figures which ultimately proved groundless, by which time some of the accused had died. Further, it turned out Beach was actually guilty of some of the crimes he had accused others of. The scandal had significant political fallout because one of the accused was former Prime Minister Ted Heath, who was responsible for bringing the UK into the EU,  and the allegations surfaced during the Brexit referendum.

Now, it's certainly true that not everyone who suffers sexual abuse or assault goes to the Police, for a variety of reasons. In most cases it's because the victim "puts up with it" and this may or may not be a valid strategy depending on how serious the abuse is. To clarify this point - most people will suffer some form of sexual assault at some point - someone will make unwanted sexual comments about you, or they'll grope you (like common law assault sexual assault doesn't necessarily mean physical contact). The other side of this is that many people, and probably most men, will have committed sexual assault at some point - along with actual assault.

Frankly - I'm more than a little suspicious of any man who claims he's completely innocent of this, at the very least most of us have paid a girl unwanted attention at a party when drunk - and that falls under the strict definition of sexual assault if you made them uncomfortable.

Coming back around to Jeremy Soule - I think it's inappropriate to refer to him as "Jeremy" or her as "Nathalie", we don't know either of them and we shouldn't be acting or talking like we do. If the accusations ARE true then the last thing Mr Soule's victims will want is you being overly familiar and putting yourself up as their "white knight." As I said before, I find the other accusations of misconduct plausible - but unproven. I don't find the rape accusation particularly credible. A number of things don't ring true - the narrative is far too sanitised, there's none of the guilty self-reflection that's common to victims of serious assault, who tend to internalise blame and reflect it back on themselves. There's an auful lot about her job, how she's so good at it, how nobody appreciates this and how she works much harder than anyone else.

It's apparent this person has a poor work ethic, as I said, they work too hard, obsess over details and burn out months before the project needs to be finished - leaving them unable to complete their work. I'm reading between the lines here, but this seems to be a far more likely assessment of the situation than the one the author gives in their blog, which, frankly, reads as a narcissistic self-justification. I don't believe Jeremy Soule has enough swing to tank a developer's career - he's the composer, he's not a producer or developer himself - he's not going to get intimately involved in that side of things. The secondly company this person worked for has roundly and emphatically denied Soule had any involvement in their being let go - they made it clear in their correspondence it was because of the person's poor attitude.

This person clearly has a poor attitude - that's apparent from some of their previous writing - and in particular the way they view men and their position in the gaming industry. I'm a man, Arthmoor's a man, we don't necessarily get along with Andalay all the time but I don't think she'd accuse either of us for ever denigrating her work because she was a woman or expressing shock that she's competent despite her gender. Even ten years ago most men were more evolved than that.

 

So, in conclusion - I do not consider that Nathalie Lawhead is a reliable witness and based on that I do not deem her accusations to be very credible. Thus far she is the only person to accuse Jeremy Soule of any physical assault - all the other accusations have amounted to him being a sexist prig - which may well be partially true, at least. Jeremy Soule is not Harvey Weinstein, not least in that women had been going to the Police about that guy for years before the story broke - and that's the crucial difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't disagree with you, @Sigurd Stormhand
Not talking about you but I think it's possible to have a discussion when we're on opposing sides of an issue without personal attacks, which is something some people clearly aren't capable of, as they've demonstrated on numerous occasions now. I refuse to have a back and forth with someone like that, but I digress.

I will refrain from replying any further on the subject unless there is any relevant news to discuss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vincent, you should go back and look at the progression of this thread and seriously reevaluate just who resorted to personal attacks in all of this. As far as I'm concerned, this is a due process of law issue and an innocent until proven guilty issue. There have been no charges file and no verdict handed down by a jury. It's not right wing nonsense to expect these processes to be followed. The kind of justice you're asking for is barbarism, period.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×